Discussion:
Delphi to VO
(too old to reply)
Gosia Zieliñska
2003-11-25 16:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.

I need to use function declared:

function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte

How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?

I have done it in this way:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
and:

LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY

RSSequence(0x0000003F,0,30,@tab,tab1)

And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Mark D. Lincoln
2003-11-25 19:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Gosia,

It may not be possible to call the function from your VO program. You
have to determine a few things before you can declare the function prototype
in VO. First, what is the calling convention that the original function was
compiled with? It can be one of many. Below is an excerpt from the Delphi
help on calling conventions in Delphi:

************************************************************************
When you declare a procedure or function, you can specify a calling
convention using one of the directives register, pascal, cdecl, stdcall, and
safecall. For example,

function MyFunction(X, Y: Real): Real; cdecl;

...

Calling conventions determine the order in which parameters are passed to
the routine. They also affect the removal of parameters from the stack, the
use of registers for passing parameters, and error and exception handling.
The default calling convention is register.

The register and pascal conventions pass parameters from left to right; that
is, the leftmost parameter is evaluated and passed first and the rightmost
parameter is evaluated and passed last. The cdecl, stdcall, and safecall
conventions pass parameters from right to left.
For all conventions except cdecl, the procedure or function removes
parameters from the stack upon returning. With the cdecl convention, the
caller removes parameters from the stack when the call returns.

The register convention uses up to three CPU registers to pass parameters,
while the other conventions pass all parameters on the stack.
The safecall convention implements exception "firewalls." On Windows, this
implements interprocess COM error notification.

The table below summarizes calling conventions.

Directive Parameter order Clean-up Passes parameters in registers?
register Left-to-right Routine Yes
pascal Left-to-right Routine No
cdecl Right-to-left Caller No
stdcall Right-to-left Routine No
safecall Right-to-left Routine No
The default register convention is the most efficient, since it usually
avoids creation of a stack frame. (Access methods for published properties
must use register.) The cdecl convention is useful when you call functions
from shared libraries written in C or C++, while stdcall and safecall are
recommended, in general, for calls to external code. On Windows, the
operating system APIs are stdcall and safecall. Other operating systems
generally use cdecl. (Note that stdcall is more efficient than cdecl.)

The safecall convention must be used for declaring dual-interface methods.
The pascal convention is maintained for backward compatibility. For more
information on calling conventions, see Program control.
The directives near, far, and export refer to calling conventions in 16-bit
Windows programming. They have no effect in 32-bit applications and are
maintained for backward compatibility only.
************************************************************************

Typically the biggest problem with using a Delphi DLL in a VO program is
that the functions have been compiled using the default register calling
convention which is only compatible with other Delphi code. If you have
access to the original code, and access to Delphi, recompile the functions
using the StdCall calling convention and you should be able to call the
functions in your VO code without problems.

You may also want to check into what the TBuffer type is as it looks like a
custom Delphi type. Typically, custom Delphi types are not useable in a VO
program unless they are based on a group of primitive types like a structure
containing primitive values or an array of bytes. I would assume that
TBuffer fits into this description or the function will not be useable.

Mark D. Lincoln, President
Cycle Consulting, Inc.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-25 21:59:25 UTC
Permalink
He is alive... Howdy Mark

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-----------
Post by Mark D. Lincoln
Gosia,
It may not be possible to call the function from your VO program. You
have to determine a few things before you can declare the function prototype
in
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-25 18:49:08 UTC
Permalink
You may want to try to delcare your array as a dimentioned array like:

LOCAL DIM INputBuffer [10] AS USUAL
LOCAL DIM outputBuffer[10] AS USUAL

Then you would call it as in:

RSSequence(ControlCode, QuantityOfbytestoreceive, QuantityOfbytestoSend, @INputBuffer,
@outputBuffer)

Of course the size of the array has to be changed.

_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
PTR) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36

It may or might not work but hopefully will!

JAMAL
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Frédéric C.
2003-11-25 19:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gosia,

For the InputBuffer you must declare a typed array of bytes. But for the
outputBuffer there is a problem, are you sure of the function prototype ? a
"var" keyword isn't omited in front ?

Try this:

_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
PTR) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36

local dim inbuf[256] as byte
local dim outbuf[256] as byte

RSSequence(0x0000003F, 0 , 30, @inbuf, @outbuf)

--
Frédéric
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamie
2003-11-25 20:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...

<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-25 20:37:39 UTC
Permalink
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!

I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamie
2003-11-25 20:44:26 UTC
Permalink
You da man Jamal!
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-26 02:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,

You are the one who needs to get a life mate.

You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of humor?
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It is a
bit quiet up here today.

Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...

I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.

why is it taking so long ?

Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he learns
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know the
right people.

Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-26 04:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Graham,

I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have contributed nothing
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so happy with C#, go for
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have the right to come in
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and Jamie assume that
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and somehow you're the
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for the sense of humor,
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except I see that an
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to achieve what you
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want to make a fool of
yourself. :)

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of humor?
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It is a
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he learns
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know the
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-26 08:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got some
twisted ideas there.

Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support.

Regards
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have contributed nothing
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so happy with C#, go for
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have the right to come in
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and Jamie assume that
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and somehow you're the
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for the sense of humor,
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except I see that an
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to achieve what you
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want to make a fool of
yourself. :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of humor?
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It is a
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he learns
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know the
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-26 16:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham McKechnie
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got some
twisted ideas there.
Your judgment is totally flawed. I think the jury on this NG thinks it's you who has the
twisted ideas.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support
Then behave! <g> It will be better for all concerned, seriously :)

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got some
twisted ideas there.
Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support.
Regards
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have
contributed nothing
Post by Jamal Assaf
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so happy
with C#, go for
Post by Jamal Assaf
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have the
right to come in
Post by Jamal Assaf
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and Jamie
assume that
Post by Jamal Assaf
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and somehow
you're the
Post by Jamal Assaf
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for the
sense of humor,
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except I
see that an
Post by Jamal Assaf
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to
achieve what you
Post by Jamal Assaf
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want to
make a fool of
Post by Jamal Assaf
yourself. :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of
humor?
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It
is a
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he
learns
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know
the
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people
hot
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-26 20:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,

I really don't know why I'm having this conversation with you because I
haven't a clue who you are.
Post by Jamal Assaf
Your judgment is totally flawed. I think the jury on this NG thinks it's you who has the
twisted ideas.
I've already stated you are entitled to your own opinion, what you think
about my judgement is of absolutely zero interest to me.

All I suggested was for you to lighten up some - Jamie was making a joke -
you some how didn't get it, but I hope you do now.

If you don't like what I say, well by all means turn me OFF, don't read my
stuff - I doubt you will miss any earth shattering news.

Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got some
twisted ideas there.
Your judgment is totally flawed. I think the jury on this NG thinks it's you who has the
twisted ideas.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support
Then behave! <g> It will be better for all concerned, seriously :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got some
twisted ideas there.
Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support.
Regards
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have
contributed nothing
Post by Jamal Assaf
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so happy
with C#, go for
Post by Jamal Assaf
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have the
right to come in
Post by Jamal Assaf
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and Jamie
assume that
Post by Jamal Assaf
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and somehow
you're the
Post by Jamal Assaf
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for the
sense of humor,
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except I
see that an
Post by Jamal Assaf
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to
achieve what you
Post by Jamal Assaf
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want to
make a fool of
Post by Jamal Assaf
yourself. :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of
humor?
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It
is a
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he
learns
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know
the
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people
hot
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-27 01:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Graham,

I'm just someone who LOVES VO and will stick with it as long as it's alive and I don't
appreciate it when you and Jamie just keep talking non sense that of no use or benefit to
anyone!

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
I really don't know why I'm having this conversation with you because I
haven't a clue who you are.
Post by Jamal Assaf
Your judgment is totally flawed. I think the jury on this NG thinks it's
you who has the
Post by Jamal Assaf
twisted ideas.
I've already stated you are entitled to your own opinion, what you think
about my judgement is of absolutely zero interest to me.
All I suggested was for you to lighten up some - Jamie was making a joke -
you some how didn't get it, but I hope you do now.
If you don't like what I say, well by all means turn me OFF, don't read my
stuff - I doubt you will miss any earth shattering news.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got
some
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
twisted ideas there.
Your judgment is totally flawed. I think the jury on this NG thinks it's
you who has the
Post by Jamal Assaf
twisted ideas.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support
Then behave! <g> It will be better for all concerned, seriously :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. But I afraid you've got
some
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
twisted ideas there.
Sorry, but I'll leave when I see fit, when I no longer have VO apps to
support.
Regards
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have
contributed nothing
Post by Jamal Assaf
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so
happy
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
with C#, go for
Post by Jamal Assaf
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have
the
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
right to come in
Post by Jamal Assaf
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and
Jamie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
assume that
Post by Jamal Assaf
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and
somehow
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
you're the
Post by Jamal Assaf
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for
the
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
sense of humor,
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except
I
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
see that an
Post by Jamal Assaf
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to
achieve what you
Post by Jamal Assaf
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want
to
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
make a fool of
Post by Jamal Assaf
yourself. :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense
of
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
humor?
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment.
It
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
is a
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless
answer
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart
arse
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off,
he
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
learns
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to
know
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
the
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all
your
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist
people
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
hot
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-27 13:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,

I like and use VO too, but it's not like marriage - it's ok to like and use
other languages too. As for using a language as long as it's alive - well
that's your choice, but Clipper is still alive (and still selling reasonably
well!) but I no longer use it, even though it was almost perfect for me for
many years. If I had taken the position that I would stick with that
language as long as it was alive, I'd be out of business today.

I really do think everybody here should at least try a new language every
other year or so. Even if it only makes you appreciate VO all the more (as
C++ and Delphi and VB did for me), it's still time well spent to see what
most of the rest of the industry is up to.

You (and the rest of the VO community) really shouldn't feel threatened by
Graham and Jamie. They're just trying to get you to expand your horizons. VO
will stand on its own strengths and isn't vulnerable to their (and my)
comments or to the suggestion that it may not be the perfect langauge in
every situation (since no single language is).
--
Ginny
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I'm just someone who LOVES VO and will stick with it as long as it's alive and I don't
appreciate it when you and Jamie just keep talking non sense that of no use or benefit to
anyone!
Jamal
Jan Waiz
2003-11-27 14:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,

nobody as you could say this true words so charmant... :-)

Regards
Jan Waiz
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
I like and use VO too, but it's not like marriage - it's ok to like and use
other languages too. As for using a language as long as it's alive - well
that's your choice, but Clipper is still alive (and still selling reasonably
well!) but I no longer use it, even though it was almost perfect for me for
many years. If I had taken the position that I would stick with that
language as long as it was alive, I'd be out of business today.
I really do think everybody here should at least try a new language every
other year or so. Even if it only makes you appreciate VO all the more (as
C++ and Delphi and VB did for me), it's still time well spent to see what
most of the rest of the industry is up to.
You (and the rest of the VO community) really shouldn't feel threatened by
Graham and Jamie. They're just trying to get you to expand your horizons. VO
will stand on its own strengths and isn't vulnerable to their (and my)
comments or to the suggestion that it may not be the perfect langauge in
every situation (since no single language is).
--
Ginny
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I'm just someone who LOVES VO and will stick with it as long as it's
alive
Post by Graham McKechnie
and I don't
Post by Jamal Assaf
appreciate it when you and Jamie just keep talking non sense that of no
use or benefit to
Post by Jamal Assaf
anyone!
Jamal
Adriano Rui Gominho
2003-11-27 17:00:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:54:25 -0500, "Ginny Caughey"
Post by Ginny Caughey
J
I really do think everybody here should at least try a new language every
other year or so.
Just like marriage should be...

Just kidding, my wife could google this out<g>

Adriano
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-27 17:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ginny,

What you're saying is all well taken, how their approach and style is absolutely not
called for and defeats any good will on their part if they intended that, but I did not
sense that. I have Visual Studio and I have several books about C# and VB.NET, I even did
some programming in C++, VB, ASP, and ASP.NET. I know several other programming languages
including assembler, Fortran, PL1 and Java.

As for VO, it's my choice and still is and I am more productive in it than in other
language and I will support it. When I said if it's a live, that meant of course that
there is a company whose is committed to it, and Grafx already proved that. C#, NET time
will come and surely they are interesting but even many C++ and VB programmers did not
jump into the NET world, yet somehow, it's expected from VO developers to keep moving with
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days of VO 1.0, that was
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your problems" attitude, or
does it?

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
I like and use VO too, but it's not like marriage - it's ok to like and use
other languages too. As for using a language as long as it's alive - well
that's your choice, but Clipper is still alive (and still selling reasonably
well!) but I no longer use it, even though it was almost perfect for me for
many years. If I had taken the position that I would stick with that
language as long as it was alive, I'd be out of business today.
I really do think everybody here should at least try a new language every
other year or so. Even if it only makes you appreciate VO all the more (as
C++ and Delphi and VB did for me), it's still time well spent to see what
most of the rest of the industry is up to.
You (and the rest of the VO community) really shouldn't feel threatened by
Graham and Jamie. They're just trying to get you to expand your horizons. VO
will stand on its own strengths and isn't vulnerable to their (and my)
comments or to the suggestion that it may not be the perfect langauge in
every situation (since no single language is).
--
Ginny
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I'm just someone who LOVES VO and will stick with it as long as it's alive
and I don't
Post by Jamal Assaf
appreciate it when you and Jamie just keep talking non sense that of no
use or benefit to
Post by Jamal Assaf
anyone!
Jamal
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-28 12:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days of VO 1.0, that was
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your problems" attitude, or
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded with
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision to move
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have more
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more resources to
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy as VO
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language team at
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE could
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.

Ginny
Erik Visser
2003-11-28 12:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ginny,

Let us not hope we get a VO# like C#builder. I only hear very negative
sounds about it (the IDE in particulair)

Ginny, this is nothing personal agianst you, but i am tired of all the
sounds about the history.
I think you and others had very good motives to move from VO to C#. And if
you have to go to .NET rightt now, you go to C#.
Most of us know the history of VO from the CA period
But right now Brian is in charge and he deserves better than pointing out
the bad history of VO. He cannot do anything about that. The VO-ers that
stay with VO also does not need to be told how bad the CA period was. Let us
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0

with love from Holland,


Erik
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days of
VO
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0, that was
Post by Jamal Assaf
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your
problems" attitude, or
Post by Jamal Assaf
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded with
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision to move
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have more
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more resources to
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy as VO
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language team at
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE could
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.
Ginny
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-28 14:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Erik,

snip[ I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for Grafx-VO,and
i can wait until VO3.0 ]

Well said....... !

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------------------------------------
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let us
Post by Jamal Assaf
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-28 20:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Erik,

Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some developers
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.

Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let us not hope we get a VO# like C#builder. I only hear very negative
sounds about it (the IDE in particulair)
Ginny, this is nothing personal agianst you, but i am tired of all the
sounds about the history.
I think you and others had very good motives to move from VO to C#. And if
you have to go to .NET rightt now, you go to C#.
Most of us know the history of VO from the CA period
But right now Brian is in charge and he deserves better than pointing out
the bad history of VO. He cannot do anything about that. The VO-ers that
stay with VO also does not need to be told how bad the CA period was. Let us
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0
with love from Holland,
Erik
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days of
VO
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0, that was
Post by Jamal Assaf
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your
problems" attitude, or
Post by Jamal Assaf
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded with
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision to move
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have more
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more
resources
Post by Jamal Assaf
to
Post by Ginny Caughey
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy as VO
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language
team
Post by Jamal Assaf
at
Post by Ginny Caughey
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE could
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.
Ginny
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-28 22:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Graham,
VOers don't have now <
This sounds fair.
and will never have <
Now this seems far fetched! This sound to me like predicting the weather.

Jamal
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some developers
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let us not hope we get a VO# like C#builder. I only hear very negative
sounds about it (the IDE in particulair)
Ginny, this is nothing personal agianst you, but i am tired of all the
sounds about the history.
I think you and others had very good motives to move from VO to C#. And if
you have to go to .NET rightt now, you go to C#.
Most of us know the history of VO from the CA period
But right now Brian is in charge and he deserves better than pointing out
the bad history of VO. He cannot do anything about that. The VO-ers that
stay with VO also does not need to be told how bad the CA period was. Let
us
Post by Jamal Assaf
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0
with love from Holland,
Erik
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days
of
Post by Jamal Assaf
VO
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0, that was
Post by Jamal Assaf
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your
problems" attitude, or
Post by Jamal Assaf
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded
with
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision to
move
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have more
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more
resources
Post by Jamal Assaf
to
Post by Ginny Caughey
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy as
VO
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language
team
Post by Jamal Assaf
at
Post by Ginny Caughey
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE
could
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.
Ginny
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-28 23:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Just my opinion Jamal. Why don't you do the sums and see what you come up?

Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
VOers don't have now <
This sounds fair.
and will never have <
Now this seems far fetched! This sound to me like predicting the weather.
Jamal
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some developers
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let us not hope we get a VO# like C#builder. I only hear very negative
sounds about it (the IDE in particulair)
Ginny, this is nothing personal agianst you, but i am tired of all the
sounds about the history.
I think you and others had very good motives to move from VO to C#. And if
you have to go to .NET rightt now, you go to C#.
Most of us know the history of VO from the CA period
But right now Brian is in charge and he deserves better than pointing out
the bad history of VO. He cannot do anything about that. The VO-ers that
stay with VO also does not need to be told how bad the CA period was. Let
us
Post by Jamal Assaf
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0
with love from Holland,
Erik
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days
of
Post by Jamal Assaf
VO
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0, that was
Post by Jamal Assaf
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your
problems" attitude, or
Post by Jamal Assaf
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded
with
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision to
move
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have more
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more
resources
Post by Jamal Assaf
to
Post by Ginny Caughey
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy as
VO
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language
team
Post by Jamal Assaf
at
Post by Ginny Caughey
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE
could
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.
Ginny
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-29 00:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Oh! Graham! It's not as if I don't use I will lost it <g> We already have a commitment
from Grafx about the future of VO and the dev. team is fully qualified to produce VO.NET
language and surely there willbe an easier migration path to the .NET world than jumping
into C# right now and waste time trying to come up native DBF/CDX support, ragged arrays
that support different datatypes, codeblocks and specialized SLE controls, etc. If C# or
VB.NET can handle that, I will surely look into it. I know that C# has advanced features
that relate to MS technologies, but is this a suitable solution to a VO shop that has
invested so much in VO, knowing that it does not make sense at the current time?

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Just my opinion Jamal. Why don't you do the sums and see what you come up?
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
VOers don't have now <
This sounds fair.
and will never have <
Now this seems far fetched! This sound to me like predicting the weather.
Jamal
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some
developers
Post by Jamal Assaf
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let us not hope we get a VO# like C#builder. I only hear very negative
sounds about it (the IDE in particulair)
Ginny, this is nothing personal agianst you, but i am tired of all the
sounds about the history.
I think you and others had very good motives to move from VO to C#.
And if
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamal Assaf
you have to go to .NET rightt now, you go to C#.
Most of us know the history of VO from the CA period
But right now Brian is in charge and he deserves better than pointing
out
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamal Assaf
the bad history of VO. He cannot do anything about that. The VO-ers
that
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamal Assaf
stay with VO also does not need to be told how bad the CA period was.
Let
Post by Jamal Assaf
us
Post by Jamal Assaf
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future
for
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamal Assaf
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0
with love from Holland,
Erik
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the
days
Post by Jamal Assaf
of
Post by Jamal Assaf
VO
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0, that was
Post by Jamal Assaf
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your
problems" attitude, or
Post by Jamal Assaf
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded
with
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision
to
Post by Jamal Assaf
move
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have
more
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more
resources
Post by Jamal Assaf
to
Post by Ginny Caughey
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy
as
Post by Jamal Assaf
VO
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language
team
Post by Jamal Assaf
at
Post by Ginny Caughey
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE
could
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.
Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 02:18:57 UTC
Permalink
...and probably don't need!

But you're wrong. Yes, we will eventually get it, right about the time it
becomes useful to us...
Post by Graham McKechnie
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some developers
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 12:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

I truly hope that you are right. What timeframe are you projecting for all
this?
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
...and probably don't need!
But you're wrong. Yes, we will eventually get it, right about the time it
becomes useful to us...
Post by Graham McKechnie
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some
developers
Post by Graham McKechnie
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 21:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ginny,

Timeframe? Its flexible but I'm thinking 2-3 years. It will depend heavily
on what technology comes around the corner sooner that our clients need. At
the moment they need Win32 apps within the LAN and some external access. The
external stuff we achieve with SharePoint (that's where our C# comes into
play) - everything else is Win32 only. Our main clients are just now
upgrading to the 2003 range of products and that will do them until Longhorn
arrives.

Geoff
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff,
I truly hope that you are right. What timeframe are you projecting for all
this?
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
...and probably don't need!
But you're wrong. Yes, we will eventually get it, right about the time it
becomes useful to us...
Post by Graham McKechnie
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some
developers
Post by Graham McKechnie
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 22:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

Ok, then we'll see if a production version of VO.Net is available within 2-3
years. That would make it by the end of 2005, right? So when would you
expect to see VO.Net go into beta?
--
Ginny
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Timeframe? Its flexible but I'm thinking 2-3 years. It will depend heavily
on what technology comes around the corner sooner that our clients need. At
the moment they need Win32 apps within the LAN and some external access. The
external stuff we achieve with SharePoint (that's where our C# comes into
play) - everything else is Win32 only. Our main clients are just now
upgrading to the 2003 range of products and that will do them until Longhorn
arrives.
Geoff
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff,
I truly hope that you are right. What timeframe are you projecting for all
this?
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
...and probably don't need!
But you're wrong. Yes, we will eventually get it, right about the time
it
Post by Gary Stark
Post by Geoff Schaller
becomes useful to us...
Post by Graham McKechnie
Erik,
Ginny isn't talking about history. She is talking about what some
developers
Post by Graham McKechnie
have now, that VOers don't have now and will never have.
Graham
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-30 11:16:00 UTC
Permalink
I would be hoping 12-18 months.
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff,
Ok, then we'll see if a production version of VO.Net is available within 2-3
years. That would make it by the end of 2005, right? So when would you
expect to see VO.Net go into beta?
--
Ginny
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 13:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,

Be sure that I will ask you again in a year then. ;-)
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
I would be hoping 12-18 months.
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff,
Ok, then we'll see if a production version of VO.Net is available within
2-3
Post by Gary Stark
years. That would make it by the end of 2005, right? So when would you
expect to see VO.Net go into beta?
--
Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-12-01 12:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Go for it.... and since when have I shut up about asking for things <g>
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Geoff,
Be sure that I will ask you again in a year then. ;-)
--
Ginny
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 12:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Erik,
Post by Erik Visser
Let us not hope we get a VO# like C#builder. I only hear very negative
sounds about it (the IDE in particulair)
I don't care for C# Builder either, but some Delphi people like it I guess.
There might even be a market for a VO IDE for C#. I wouldn't choose to use
that if there was one, but Geoff would I guess. <g>
Post by Erik Visser
Ginny, this is nothing personal agianst you, but i am tired of all the
sounds about the history.
I think you and others had very good motives to move from VO to C#. And if
you have to go to .NET rightt now, you go to C#.
I guess I didn't make myself clear. I haven't "moved" at all. I still
develop in VO every day, and I am keenly interested in forward progress for
VO. I also have been developing in C# for several years now. I find many of
the language elements in C# seem almost inspired by VO, but you could also
make that case for VB.Net, and some VO developers might well prefer VB.Net
over C#.
Post by Erik Visser
Most of us know the history of VO from the CA period
But right now Brian is in charge and he deserves better than pointing out
the bad history of VO. He cannot do anything about that. The VO-ers that
stay with VO also does not need to be told how bad the CA period was. Let us
face the future. I believe in Brian and his team, and I see a future for
Grafx-VO,and i can wait until VO3.0
I don't disagree with this. Brian is enormously challenged by VO's past
history, and his team is doing a great job as far as I can tell, and they
are working a miracle considering the junk they inherited from the past. If
it was up to CA, then VO would have stayed dead. I do think it's fair to
remind everybody of this.
Post by Erik Visser
with love from Holland,
with love also from the US. Thanks for your comments.
Ginny
Marcos Nogueira
2003-11-29 15:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
...
I don't disagree with this. Brian is enormously challenged by VO's past
history, and his team is doing a great job as far as I can tell, and they
are working a miracle considering the junk they inherited from the past...
I think that maybe "junk" is too depreciative. I've developed reliable apps
with VO from version 2.0 up, and have even seen good programs in 1.0. IMO
the 2.5 version is very good (in fact, as problematic as Delphi or VB). To
me, the VO team at CA did a nice job, given the lack of interest that the
company had at the product.

Best regards,

Marcos Nogueira
S. Paulo - Brazil
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 22:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
I think that maybe "junk" is too depreciative. I've developed reliable apps
with VO from version 2.0 up, and have even seen good programs in 1.0.
I developed reliable apps too, but I didn't use most of the VO product in
order to do so. I used Classmate, lots of WinAPI coding, and was very
careful not to stress VO's fragile dynamic memory (and I still do!)

In any case, the "junk" I was referring to was the apparently completely
unprofessional source code that Brian's team inherited. It wouldn't even
compile with the original C compiler without warnings. I'm positive that if
I wrote my VO apps the way the CA team wrote VO 1.0 and VO 2.0, they would
not have been reliable.

IMO
Post by Marcos Nogueira
the 2.5 version is very good (in fact, as problematic as Delphi or VB). To
me, the VO team at CA did a nice job, given the lack of interest that the
company had at the product.
I don't know about the "very good" part and also don't know Delphi and VB
well enough to say, but I will say "much improved." I also agree with you
that they did do a good job considering that VO was maintained almost
completely by volunteer effort on their part given CA's lack of interest in
supporting its customers.

Ginny
Marcos Nogueira
2003-11-30 10:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
...
I don't know about the "very good" part and also don't know Delphi and VB
well enough to say, but I will say "much improved." I also agree with you
that they did do a good job considering that VO was maintained almost
completely by volunteer effort on their part given CA's lack of interest in
supporting its customers.
By "very good" I mean that my 2.5 apps are also "very good" <g>.

Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product (its
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER product's
code... It's not fair to VO.

Marcos
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 13:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product (its
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER product's
code... It's not fair to VO.
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the problems
didn't exist.

Ginny
Marcos Nogueira
2003-11-30 15:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the problems
didn't exist.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. Let me try to explain: for instance, in some
of our machines Excel sometimes stops with a "Not enough memory" warning,
despite a lot of memory is still available. If Excel was transferred to
another company, perhaps this company would make public what was wrong with
Excel's code (as GrafX made with VO's). The revealing of the problems
wouldn't turn Excel into "junk" - it's just software, as buggy and
error-prone as ourselves.

Marcos
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 15:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Marcos,

I understand what you are saying. I just disagree with you.
--
Ginny
Post by Jan Waiz
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the
problems
Post by Ginny Caughey
didn't exist.
Sorry if I was misunderstood. Let me try to explain: for instance, in some
of our machines Excel sometimes stops with a "Not enough memory" warning,
despite a lot of memory is still available. If Excel was transferred to
another company, perhaps this company would make public what was wrong with
Excel's code (as GrafX made with VO's). The revealing of the problems
wouldn't turn Excel into "junk" - it's just software, as buggy and
error-prone as ourselves.
Marcos
Jamal Assaf
2003-11-30 18:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ginny,

Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they should have a
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be willing to
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler because this
what will make it or break it for VO.

Jamal
Post by Ginny Caughey
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product (its
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER
product's
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code... It's not fair to VO.
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the problems
didn't exist.
Ginny
Karl Faller
2003-11-30 19:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they should have a
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be willing to
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler because this
what will make it or break it for VO.
Agreed. But listening to our bubbles eats time. ;-)
So my sugestion is this:
Channel the beta feedback through the usergroup.
Every group copies its "master" CD (so no unnecessary sending costs) ,
every member gets one, the group elects a bugmaster to receive all
bugs <g>, once a week he/she sends the result to grafx.

Almost no costs, almost no time loss for the devteam, and a much
broader range of test...

my .2
Karl
Jamal Assaf
2003-12-01 00:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Karl,

Whatever makes VO a better product is fine with me.

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they should have a
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be willing to
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler because this
what will make it or break it for VO.
Agreed. But listening to our bubbles eats time. ;-)
Channel the beta feedback through the usergroup.
Every group copies its "master" CD (so no unnecessary sending costs) ,
every member gets one, the group elects a bugmaster to receive all
bugs <g>, once a week he/she sends the result to grafx.
Almost no costs, almost no time loss for the devteam, and a much
broader range of test...
my .2
Karl
Stephane Hebert
2003-11-30 19:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,

Please watchout for the typos <g>

Steph
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they should have a
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be willing to
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler because this
what will make it or break it for VO.
Jamal
Post by Ginny Caughey
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product (its
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER
product's
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code... It's not fair to VO.
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the problems
didn't exist.
Ginny
Jamal Assaf
2003-12-01 00:24:24 UTC
Permalink
Steph,

Am I missing something??

Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Please watchout for the typos <g>
Steph
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they
should have a
Post by Jamal Assaf
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be
willing to
Post by Jamal Assaf
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler
because this
Post by Jamal Assaf
what will make it or break it for VO.
Jamal
Post by Ginny Caughey
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product
(its
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER
product's
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code... It's not fair to VO.
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
didn't exist.
Ginny
Stephane Hebert
2003-12-01 13:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
Am I missing something??
Just reread your post *carefully*

Steph
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Please watchout for the typos <g>
Steph
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they
should have a
Post by Jamal Assaf
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be
willing to
Post by Jamal Assaf
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler
because this
Post by Jamal Assaf
what will make it or break it for VO.
Jamal
Post by Ginny Caughey
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product
(its
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER
product's
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code... It's not fair to VO.
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
didn't exist.
Ginny
Jamal Assaf
2003-12-01 21:54:43 UTC
Permalink
Ooooooops! A slip of the fingers!
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
Please watchout for the typos <g>
Steph
Post by Jamal Assaf
Hi Ginny,
Let's hope that Grafx learned from the mistakes of CA. Now, I think they
should have a
Post by Jamal Assaf
pubic beta for one or two months to all VO developers and they should be
willing to
Post by Jamal Assaf
listen. It will be beneficial to all concerned to produce a solid compiler
because this
Post by Jamal Assaf
what will make it or break it for VO.
Jamal
Post by Ginny Caughey
Marcos,
Post by Marcos Nogueira
Somehow VO's "inner secrets" were revealed and, suddenly, the product
(its
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code) is considered "junk". I wonder what happens inside ANY OTHER
product's
Post by Marcos Nogueira
code... It's not fair to VO.
It is plenty fair to VO. Why should CA's developers be held to a lower
standard than we hold ourselves? Why should we have to be careful not to
stress VO's memory management because it is so fragile and has so many
internal bugs? The Grafx team has been working very hard to fix these
problems, but it is not fair to the Grafx team to pretend that the
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Ginny Caughey
didn't exist.
Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 13:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,

Despite what Borland have done for Delphi, I still see many Delphi workshops
abandoning Delphi for VB.net or C# (there is a strong push to VB.net over C#
amongst those who do switch for some reason). That can only mean that they
don't have confidence in what Borland have done. And on the C# side, the
Borland equivalent to VS has been judged in many press articles to be not
quite up to the mark. Is Borland losing it?

Geoff
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Jamal,
Post by Jamal Assaf
the wind. I remember that many people jumped into Delphi in the days of
VO
Post by Ginny Caughey
1.0, that was
Post by Jamal Assaf
their choice and they did not need the "Delphi will solve all your
problems" attitude, or
Post by Jamal Assaf
does it?
This is a good point. But those Delphi developers have been rewarded with
both a Linux version and a .Net version already for their decision to move
to Delphi. Some of them have moved to C# now anyway, but they have more
choices than we do at the moment because Borland allocated more resources to
Delphi than CA allocated to VO and never released a product as buggy as VO
1.0. Even after the loss of their chief scientist to the C# language team at
Microsoft, Borland continued to move forward, and their new .Net IDE could
appeal to C# as well as Delphi.Net developers.
Ginny
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 12:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
Despite what Borland have done for Delphi, I still see many Delphi workshops
abandoning Delphi for VB.net or C# (there is a strong push to VB.net over C#
amongst those who do switch for some reason). That can only mean that they
don't have confidence in what Borland have done. And on the C# side, the
Borland equivalent to VS has been judged in many press articles to be not
quite up to the mark. Is Borland losing it?
They may well be. They bet on a cross-platform strategy that some have
advocated here, and even though they have a history of success with
developer tools, that is a very hard thing to pull off.

Ginny
Don Carslaw
2003-11-26 13:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Well said Jamal.
There's too much ranting and raving here from a few who are basically in
the wrong ng <g>.
I don't see many 'anti-C#-evangelist people' here but I do see a few
'anti-VO-evangelist people'.
Don
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have contributed nothing
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so happy with C#, go for
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have the right to come in
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and Jamie assume that
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and somehow you're the
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for the sense of humor,
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except I see that an
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to achieve what you
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want to make a fool of
yourself. :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of humor?
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It is a
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he learns
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know the
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Jamie
2003-11-26 15:50:17 UTC
Permalink
I should have used brackets. It should read anti (C# evangelist people).
In other words, people against the people talking about C#. <g>
Post by Don Carslaw
Well said Jamal.
There's too much ranting and raving here from a few who are basically in
the wrong ng <g>.
I don't see many 'anti-C#-evangelist people' here but I do see a few
'anti-VO-evangelist people'.
Don
Post by Jamal Assaf
Graham,
I don't want to waste time my listening to you or Jamie! You both have contributed nothing
to NG in the past few months except cry and complain! If you're so happy with C#, go for
it. I am not against C# or whatever, but that does not mean you have the right to come in
and mock VO and developers who use it and are happy with it. You and Jamie assume that
people here know little or nothing about C# or other languages and somehow you're the
smart ones who made a great discovery <vbg>, but you're wrong! As for the sense of humor,
I am not amused or see any humor in what you trying to achieve, except I see that an
agenda of trying take revenge at VO maybe because you were not able to achieve what you
want. You found your cozy den, so leave in peace <g> unless you want to make a fool of
yourself. :)
Jamal
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamal,
You are the one who needs to get a life mate.
You didn't see the <G> and the "just kidding". Where is your sense of humor?
Jamie was probably just looking for his daily dose of entertainment. It is a
bit quiet up here today.
Its not worth getting upset about. Lighten up some...
I don't see you getting upset about the following totally useless answer
Right here on my drive.
why is it taking so long ?
Good things take time....
I bet the guy asking the question, really appreciated that smart arse
comment, on top of the belting Geoff gave him. Then to top it off, he learns
that some of the elite already have a 2.7 copy. I guess you have to know the
right people.
Graham
Post by Jamal Assaf
I am sorry but you're very childish! Get a life!!
I think it's about time to put you on IGNORE!
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your
problems
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD,
QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR,
outputBuffer AS
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Jamal Assaf
Post by Jamie
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Erik Visser
2003-11-26 09:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Who do you have in mind? I have not seen any serious (you cannot call Phil
serious) comments against C# here.
From i read, hear etc most peoplearound here are able to make money with
VO apps and do not see the point of moving over (jet).


Erik
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Markus Feser
2003-11-26 11:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Switch to politician. You can do anything. It will solve all your
problems...

wow <g>
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...
Stephane Hebert
2003-11-26 13:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Jamie and Graham,

Please, we don't need trolls here.

We undersand your point, .Net is here and in about two years if we haven't
switched to a .Net environment then we'll be all toast.
We all heard what you had to say and I'm sure everybody gets the message.

Can we move on now or is this evangelization of C# going to last forever ?

Steph
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#. It will solve all your problems
...
<G>
Just kidding. This is just to get all you anti-C#-evangelist people hot
under the collar.
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Jamie
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Denis Mitrofanov
2003-11-26 13:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Jamie
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#.
Can I tight a screw with C#? <g>
Post by Jamie
It will solve all your problems
Hmmm... I have one very-very bad programmer in my team. Is swithing on C#
made him a professional? <g>

Programs are written with a head, not with development tool...

Denis
Jamie
2003-11-26 15:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Denis,

I don't think it will help. You can write bad code in C# as well.<g>

My message was just a bit of a poke at the people who are getting annoyed at
me for talking about C#. I don't REALLY think C# will solve all your
problems.

To everyone else,

Here's were I stand: I've been using VO since version 1.0 and it has been a
great development environment. It has served me well and we have a major in
house application fully developed in VO. I think I have a right to post and
give my opinions on this news group. C# development is surely a lot closer
to VO than the political crap that Geoff and others get off on.

I have never mocked VO programmers as some suggest, but I do point out when
people make erroneous statements about .Net technologies or slam them simply
because Microsoft developed them. Also I believe that C# .Net is the
natural migration for the VO developer. They will be able to use their
WORTHWHILE VO skills to quickly come up to speed in the .Net environment.

And another point. I will continue to caution new users about moving into
VO at this point in time. Do I hate VO and VO developers? NO. I just
think that there are better options at the moment. VO has had a very poor
track record for support and upgrades. I realize Brian has it now, but I
still maintain that it is to little, to late. If I was thinking of
converting to Windows at the moment, I would want some one to tell me about
other options.

In the end we all have our opinions. If you truly believe in what you are
doing, my opinions shouldn't bother you so much.

Jamie
Post by Denis Mitrofanov
Hi, Jamie
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#.
Can I tight a screw with C#? <g>
Post by Jamie
It will solve all your problems
Hmmm... I have one very-very bad programmer in my team. Is swithing on C#
made him a professional? <g>
Programs are written with a head, not with development tool...
Denis
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-26 21:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Jamie,

I really shouldn't have thought your explanation necessary. If some people
here don't understand your motives, then I'm afraid they are not really
trying or running around wearing blinkers.

Graham
Post by Jamie
Denis,
I don't think it will help. You can write bad code in C# as well.<g>
My message was just a bit of a poke at the people who are getting annoyed at
me for talking about C#. I don't REALLY think C# will solve all your
problems.
To everyone else,
Here's were I stand: I've been using VO since version 1.0 and it has been a
great development environment. It has served me well and we have a major in
house application fully developed in VO. I think I have a right to post and
give my opinions on this news group. C# development is surely a lot closer
to VO than the political crap that Geoff and others get off on.
I have never mocked VO programmers as some suggest, but I do point out when
people make erroneous statements about .Net technologies or slam them simply
because Microsoft developed them. Also I believe that C# .Net is the
natural migration for the VO developer. They will be able to use their
WORTHWHILE VO skills to quickly come up to speed in the .Net environment.
And another point. I will continue to caution new users about moving into
VO at this point in time. Do I hate VO and VO developers? NO. I just
think that there are better options at the moment. VO has had a very poor
track record for support and upgrades. I realize Brian has it now, but I
still maintain that it is to little, to late. If I was thinking of
converting to Windows at the moment, I would want some one to tell me about
other options.
In the end we all have our opinions. If you truly believe in what you are
doing, my opinions shouldn't bother you so much.
Jamie
Post by Denis Mitrofanov
Hi, Jamie
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#.
Can I tight a screw with C#? <g>
Post by Jamie
It will solve all your problems
Hmmm... I have one very-very bad programmer in my team. Is swithing on C#
made him a professional? <g>
Programs are written with a head, not with development tool...
Denis
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-26 22:02:39 UTC
Permalink
snip[ Also I believe that C# .Net is the natural migration for the VO
developer. ]

At this point in history I would agree..... but I am one to see how CULE
pans out as well.

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-------------------------------------------
Jamie
2003-11-26 23:06:53 UTC
Permalink
CULE looks very interesting. I would love to see it succeed. However,
unless CULE has VO type libraries that allow for easy migration from VO, I
can't see any advantage of using it over C#. I can see many advantages of
using C# though.
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ Also I believe that C# .Net is the natural migration for the VO
developer. ]
At this point in history I would agree..... but I am one to see how CULE
pans out as well.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-------------------------------------------
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-26 23:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Jamie,

I agree CULE# has a got a lot to compete against... but hopefully Rod has
thought that through and provides one of those languages that is
"compelling". <G>

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------------------------------------
Post by Jamie
CULE looks very interesting. I would love to see it succeed. However,
unless CULE has VO type libraries that allow for easy migration from VO, I
can't see any advantage of using it over C#. I can see many advantages of
using C# though.
D.J.W. van Kooten
2003-11-27 19:39:51 UTC
Permalink
C# development is surely a lot closer to VO than the political crap that Geoff and others get off on.
Crap? As far as I recall Geoff mainly commented that building libs in
another language -C# or whatever- would take him 2 years. Why is that
political crap? Some people in this NG make their living delivering
programs and don't have the time to try another language every 2 or 3
years (as Ginny suggested). Unless the future of VO would look
hopeless, I and many others will prefer to invest in improving their
VO based products instead of starting from scratch with whatever other
language.
I have never mocked VO programmers as some suggest, but I do point out when
people make erroneous statements about .Net technologies or slam them simply
because Microsoft developed them.
For me, that's a very good reason to stay as far away from it as
possible. MS has completely taken over the Office market and OS
markets and will gladly monopolize the developing language market as
well. Remember? They started with Windows 3.11/Word for about half the
price of market leader WordPerfect then, who had an excellent (DOS)
product with unlimited high quality support. Now the Office products
prices' have grown to the original level, there is no support
included, paid support is miserable and expensive and the products
leave much to be desired.

Are you happy now with C# and MS support? Just wait until they have
85% of the market and see how good it is then.

If I have a VO question or request, I can drop en e-mail to Brian and
get an answer most of the time. If I have a MS question, Bill won't
give me an answer. No one else from MS either (I am not talking about
C# - but if this is any better, as written, just wait 2 years....)

Thus, for now, this is the reason why I accept some shortcomings of VO
and would warn developers NOT to go to MS products.

Dick van Kooten
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-27 20:28:18 UTC
Permalink
Dick,

You sure live in a strange world - umm you really don't like MS.

Graham.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
C# development is surely a lot closer to VO than the political crap that
Geoff and others get off on.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Crap? As far as I recall Geoff mainly commented that building libs in
another language -C# or whatever- would take him 2 years. Why is that
political crap? Some people in this NG make their living delivering
programs and don't have the time to try another language every 2 or 3
years (as Ginny suggested). Unless the future of VO would look
hopeless, I and many others will prefer to invest in improving their
VO based products instead of starting from scratch with whatever other
language.
I have never mocked VO programmers as some suggest, but I do point out when
people make erroneous statements about .Net technologies or slam them simply
because Microsoft developed them.
For me, that's a very good reason to stay as far away from it as
possible. MS has completely taken over the Office market and OS
markets and will gladly monopolize the developing language market as
well. Remember? They started with Windows 3.11/Word for about half the
price of market leader WordPerfect then, who had an excellent (DOS)
product with unlimited high quality support. Now the Office products
prices' have grown to the original level, there is no support
included, paid support is miserable and expensive and the products
leave much to be desired.
Are you happy now with C# and MS support? Just wait until they have
85% of the market and see how good it is then.
If I have a VO question or request, I can drop en e-mail to Brian and
get an answer most of the time. If I have a MS question, Bill won't
give me an answer. No one else from MS either (I am not talking about
C# - but if this is any better, as written, just wait 2 years....)
Thus, for now, this is the reason why I accept some shortcomings of VO
and would warn developers NOT to go to MS products.
Dick van Kooten
Jamie
2003-11-27 20:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
C# development is surely a lot closer to VO than the political crap that
Geoff and others get off on.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Crap? As far as I recall Geoff mainly commented that building libs in
another language -C# or whatever- would take him 2 years. Why is that
political crap? Some people in this NG make their living delivering
programs and don't have the time to try another language every 2 or 3
years (as Ginny suggested). Unless the future of VO would look
hopeless, I and many others will prefer to invest in improving their
VO based products instead of starting from scratch with whatever other
language.
I was accused of going off topic when talking of .Net and was merely
pointing out that others on this group get WAY off topic. They discuss
world polotics, the evils of President Bush, the troubles in the Middle
East, witch burning and of course, who can forget the extensive thread on
who invented the airplane. If I remember correctly it was someone in Brazil
and for sure not one of those arrogent Americans.<g>
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
I have never mocked VO programmers as some suggest, but I do point out when
people make erroneous statements about .Net technologies or slam them simply
because Microsoft developed them.
For me, that's a very good reason to stay as far away from it as
possible.
MS has completely taken over the Office market and OS
markets and will gladly monopolize the developing language market as
well. Remember? They started with Windows 3.11/Word for about half the
price of market leader WordPerfect then, who had an excellent (DOS)
product with unlimited high quality support. Now the Office products
prices' have grown to the original level, there is no support
included, paid support is miserable and expensive and the products
leave much to be desired.
Is that why you've stayed with such a great company like CA all these years?
The wonderful support they have provided while those poor Microsoft
developer bastards have had such bad support? Why don't you take a great
big reality check?
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Are you happy now with C# and MS support? Just wait until they have
85% of the market and see how good it is then.
If I have a VO question or request, I can drop en e-mail to Brian and
get an answer most of the time. If I have a MS question, Bill won't
give me an answer. No one else from MS either (I am not talking about
C# - but if this is any better, as written, just wait 2 years....)
So you can call Brian and he will tell you first hand what VO CAN'T do.
Meanwhile I'll search the extensive MSDN documentation, talk to the
multitudes of .Net developers, read one of the many detailed books on .Net,
recieve professional training in any major global city, attend one of the
myriad of developer conferences, talk to a regional director that actually
knows about their own products and browse innumerable highly informative
websites so I can find out what CAN BE DONE in .Net.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Thus, for now, this is the reason why I accept some shortcomings of VO
and would warn developers NOT to go to MS products.
To each his own. <g>
Gary Stark
2003-11-27 22:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Dick,

With all due respect,
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
C# development is surely a lot closer to VO than the political crap that Geoff and others get off on.
Crap? As far as I recall Geoff mainly commented that building libs in
another language -C# or whatever- would take him 2 years.
That may well be a comment on Geoff, more than anything else.

Any time he spends rebuilding libraries might well be better spent (in C#) learning and undertsanding the
classes and environment. Given the richness and completeness of that environment, I would suspect that
it's quite likely that much of the work spent in maintaining our own libraries might be superfluous.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Some people in this NG make their living delivering
programs and don't have the time to try another language every 2 or 3
years (as Ginny suggested).
This is quite nonsensical.

If you do not have the time (or skills) neccessary to try new languages (and tools) very frequently, then
I would be suggesting that you need to review your career options. We live in a dynamic world, where
things change on a daily basis. Permit yourself to become out of date in any area within this industry,
and you're not just yesterday's news, you're last night's fish wrappings!

2 or 3 years is the worst case scenario I can imagine; I'd be doing this sort of thing pretty well
annually.

And as to "not having the time" ????

I'm sorry, but there is no such thing. It's called "professional development". If you are one of those who
"make their living delivering programs " then you are, by definition, professional; if you do not
undertake regular and frequent professional development then you're just a cowboy, and you are certainly
not acting like a professional.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
I and many others will prefer to invest in improving their
VO based products instead of starting from scratch with whatever other
language.
This is fine, and valid. Nothing here though changes what I've said above.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
I have never mocked VO programmers as some suggest, but I do point out when
people make erroneous statements about .Net technologies or slam them simply
because Microsoft developed them.
For me, that's a very good reason to stay as far away from it as
possible. MS has completely taken over the Office market and OS
markets and will gladly monopolize the developing language market as
well.
MS deliver many products that are best of breed. Is that a problem for you?

Have you ever met any of MS's developers? I suspect not. The ones I have met have been throroughly
professional and competent programmers, and well into the issues that their products have had. They have
listened intently to my criticisms and suggestions, and have displayed enthusiasm when it came to
discussing those products, issues, etc.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Remember? They started with Windows 3.11/Word for about half the
price of market leader WordPerfect then, who had an excellent (DOS)
product
DOS is dead.

So is WP, which failed to keep pace with what Word provided.

What's your point?
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Are you happy now with C# and MS support?
Actually, yes.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
If I have a VO question or request, I can drop en e-mail to Brian and
get an answer most of the time. If I have a MS question, Bill won't
give me an answer. No one else from MS either
Boy, are you ever wrong here. Except of course about "Bill".

MS development product developers, like VO's, frequent the relevant newsgroups. Any questions I've raised
in the MS NGs have been answered quickly and accurately.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
Thus, for now, this is the reason why I accept some shortcomings of VO
and would warn developers NOT to go to MS products.
Methinks you need to rethink some of your attitudes. You are living in the past; whereas you should be
looking towards the future.



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
D.J.W. van Kooten
2003-11-27 23:05:41 UTC
Permalink
You are living in the past; whereas you should be looking towards the future.
Graham, Jamie, Gary,

That's exactly what I do..

My customers -including 4 multinationals- are pretty conservative.
They are not looking for "new" technologies but for solutions. I can
still provide those well with VO. When I and my team invest time in
looking into other languages without the need for the "features" they
offer I have less time for improving my software. That's a fact, for
you as well as for me.

When I, as Gary suggests "need to review my career options" as "we
live in a dynamic world, where things change on a daily basis", well,
that's exactly what most companies HATE about the IT world. They are
looking for solutions they can use for years and not for days. Or is
this different with your customers?

When I see the benefits of a new development, I will be the first to
use it. In 1996, that was Cavo 1.0 when 90% of the developers where
still using DOS languages. VO 1 was a pretty unstable product, but had
a very good support. Yes, from CA in Holland. And the 3 (or more) of
you might think that the programmers future is bright with whatever MS
is doing and there is no future for VO, well, as I said, let's see
that in 2 years. And indeed, I do not know anything about the quality
of MS with regards to C#. I only know what they produce and support in
the OS and Office market. Any market which is monopolized loses...


Dick
Gary Stark
2003-11-27 23:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Dick,
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
You are living in the past; whereas you should be looking towards the future.
Graham, Jamie, Gary,
That's exactly what I do..
What ??

Live in the past?

:)
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
still provide those well with VO. When I and my team invest time in
looking into other languages without the need for the "features" they
offer I have less time for improving my software. That's a fact, for
you as well as for me.
You're missing a vital point. You also need to stay on top of the technology, else
you'll be eaten.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
When I, as Gary suggests "need to review my career options" as "we
live in a dynamic world, where things change on a daily basis", well,
that's exactly what most companies HATE about the IT world.
No.

They may say that they hate it, but when those same clients come to you asking for
advice about upgrades, the future, how they should manage their businesses, etc
etc, if you fail to provide them with this advice, based upon the current state of
the art, then they will not respect you, and you will lose their confidence.

And while they may say that they hate it, what they're actually saying is that they
don't see a need for change, purely for the sake of change.

There's a very big difference, and you need to recognise and accept this.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
They are
looking for solutions they can use for years and not for days. Or is
this different with your customers?
No, this is correct, but they are also looking for far more than just this.

As you just said, we need to be constantly improving our products, but that process
involves far, far more than just cutting code.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
When I see the benefits of a new development, I will be the first to
use it.
But, unless you're undertaking an active process of reviewing new technologies, how
in the world will you see (or see the potential for) the benefits ? If you're
relying on others to do the research, then you're going to end up as roadkill on
the technological highway.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
In 1996, that was Cavo 1.0 when 90% of the developers where
still using DOS languages.
I was using VO 1.0 alpha builds in 1993; I took some VB courses in 1994; in 1995
there were already more VB developers than, I suspect, there have ever been VO
developers, and I was also doing some Delphi work at that time. What's your point?
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
And indeed, I do not know anything about the quality
of MS with regards to C#.
That is both obvious, and probably to your disadvantage.
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
I only know what they produce and support in
the OS and Office market. Any market which is monopolized loses...
Neither market is monopolised.

You are free to use Linux, or Mac, StarOffice, whatever. Nobody has twisted your
arms to use MS products.

Moreover, you have actively recognised that your client base has chosen to use MS
products (for whatever reasons, good or bad) and you have actively decided to
service that market.

It is somewhat inconsistant and hypocritical for you to so criticise that very
market that you have made such an active decision to join and participate within.

Rather than jump and groan about it, you should be exploring all of its options and
features, to better enhance your offerings, knowledge, and marketability.

Instead, you appear to have chosen to just roll over and go to sleep.

Sweet dreams ...



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
torero
2003-11-28 08:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I'm rather a newcomer here, but I would like to add few pennies to the
thread <g>.

Dnia 2003-11-28 00:35,Gary Stark napisal(a):
[snip]
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
still provide those well with VO. When I and my team invest time in
looking into other languages without the need for the "features" they
offer I have less time for improving my software. That's a fact, for
you as well as for me.
You're missing a vital point. You also need to stay on top of the technology, else
you'll be eaten.
Not exactly. Staying on the top of IT is a good thing unless old stuff
works better. On my own I know quite a lot of cases where top technology
solutions were rejected by companies that preferred DOS solutions. Not
the decade ago - few weeks, months? In one of my previous jobs my
collague was in charge of choosing new computer management system.
Invited the spokesmen of various companies, told them to issue the
invoice, then, with sadistic smile, told them 'And now, please do it
again without the mouse'. Vital point, I'd say, considering that daily
turnover held lots of tens of documents per person. None of those
brillant 'state-of the art' solutions survived.

I am working now on sales and stocks VO app. Some days ago I wrote quite
a simple dispatcher so that my app can be handled without the mouse and
constant TAB pressing. Small thing, I suppose, but I bet we gonna bit
lots of perhaps more advanced solutions with it. With it, with the
overall look, with other foo-shmoo's. All depends on your target. If you
aim at profis, satisfy the profis' needs. If you aim at Mrs. X of
accounting, aim at Mrs. X of accounting. Are you sure Mrs. X of
accounting needs all the .Net stuff?

Maybe it sounds strange but I think that a lot of people here are
technology oriented, not the customer. When I talk to my customer, he
asks for the benefits and costs, not for technology used [in acceptable
range... you're right that DOS market is getting smaller but it still
is]. I KNOW that the technology exists. But, as IIRC Bono said,
"technology is like pen; you aren't sure to automatically write smaller
words with more modern one". OK, I switched from VO2.5->2.6 and I can
see the benefits. But switch to C# ONLY because it's new and cool and
offers advanced options that neither me not my clients need, if Vo
satisfies my needs?...
Post by Gary Stark
They may say that they hate it, but when those same clients come to you asking for
advice about upgrades, the future, how they should manage their businesses, etc
etc, if you fail to provide them with this advice, based upon the current state of
the art, then they will not respect you, and you will lose their confidence.
I would say rather "... based on good solutions". .Net, Windows, Unix -
all the same, effectiveness matters. At least in my playground <g>.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
They are
looking for solutions they can use for years and not for days. Or is
this different with your customers?
No, this is correct, but they are also looking for far more than just this.
As you just said, we need to be constantly improving our products, but that process
involves far, far more than just cutting code.
Plase pay attention to the fact that new != better [not always]. The
fact of being new itself doesn't guarantee the success. Remember push
techology, WAP boom, videoconferences... where are they now?
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
When I see the benefits of a new development, I will be the first to
use it.
But, unless you're undertaking an active process of reviewing new technologies, how
in the world will you see (or see the potential for) the benefits ? If you're
relying on others to do the research, then you're going to end up as roadkill on
the technological highway.
What about 'I need - I search' way? Change for the change? Uhm. Surely
we need some basic development to keep up with GUI look though. But the
better way seems to be tracking down trends, not tools. Tools are
derivative, methinks.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
I only know what they produce and support in
the OS and Office market. Any market which is monopolized loses...
Neither market is monopolised.
Please #define 'the monopoly'...
Post by Gary Stark
You are free to use Linux, or Mac, StarOffice, whatever. Nobody has twisted your
arms to use MS products.
In laws terms - not. In real terms - OperOffice, Linux server
installations. That's all. Compare OpenSource OS desktop choice with car
choice. Can't you see the difference? Can't you see the monopoly?
KDE/GNOME? Not for this time, I suppose.
Post by Gary Stark
Moreover, you have actively recognised that your client base has chosen to use MS
products (for whatever reasons, good or bad) and you have actively decided to
service that market.
It is somewhat inconsistant and hypocritical for you to so criticise that very
market that you have made such an active decision to join and participate within.
OS monopoly on desktops will be enough for everyone <g>. We don't need
the other one.
Post by Gary Stark
Rather than jump and groan about it, you should be exploring all of its options and
features, to better enhance your offerings, knowledge, and marketability.
And this is why I am about buying C# soon. But... why give up VO? I
still can't see the point.

Best regards,
--
Lukasz `torero' Karcz OMK
http://www.torero.eu.org
Gary Stark
2003-11-28 10:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Torero
Post by torero
Hello,
I'm rather a newcomer here, but I would like to add few pennies to the
thread <g>.
Welcome.
Post by torero
[snip]
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
still provide those well with VO. When I and my team invest time in
looking into other languages without the need for the "features" they
offer I have less time for improving my software. That's a fact, for
you as well as for me.
You're missing a vital point. You also need to stay on top of the technology, else
you'll be eaten.
Not exactly. Staying on the top of IT is a good thing unless old stuff
works better.
I said nothing different. But unless you do stay on top of this stuff, you really have no
way of knowing what does work better, do you? IOW, know what you're doing, and know
what's around the corner, but don't fix something that's not broken.
Post by torero
On my own I know quite a lot of cases where top technology
solutions were rejected by companies that preferred DOS solutions. Not
"Preferred" is a different story again.

That's an active decision, hopefully based upon good advice. There are still many good
DOS apps around, but in all honesty, DOS is no longer supported, and stuff such as
printers, modem and LFN support are becoming more and more of a chore to deal with.
Post by torero
Invited the spokesmen of various companies, told them to issue the
invoice, then, with sadistic smile, told them 'And now, please do it
again without the mouse'. Vital point, I'd say, considering that daily
turnover held lots of tens of documents per person. None of those
brillant 'state-of the art' solutions survived.
I see that as simply being a matter of poor design. I agree that apps should be designed
to function without a mouse, but that by no means excludes Windows apps; it just focusses
the design aspect more finely. This is a good thing, IMHO.
Post by torero
accounting, aim at Mrs. X of accounting. Are you sure Mrs. X of
accounting needs all the .Net stuff?
What do _you_ think "all the .net stuff" might be?

That's a serious question ...

Whether you're working in VO or in C#, you put into the application the components that
are needed.
Post by torero
Maybe it sounds strange but I think that a lot of people here are
technology oriented, not the customer.
That's not at all strange; ot's very accurate.
Post by torero
When I talk to my customer, he
asks for the benefits and costs, not for technology used [in acceptable
But they equally want to be sure that the money they're going to spend on the
technological solution is going to give them good value and longevity. I cannot seriously
guarantee that with a solution based on DOS or W9x.

I still can with VO, and I certainly can with .Net.
Post by torero
words with more modern one". OK, I switched from VO2.5->2.6 and I can
see the benefits. But switch to C# ONLY because it's new and cool and
offers advanced options that neither me not my clients need, if Vo
satisfies my needs?...
I certainly wouldn't suggest switching because C# is cool. But it does have advanced
features, many of which make my tasks easier. If my tasks are made easier, that should
translate to a reduced cost to my customer.

Add to that the stability of the platform (and the fact that there are some tasks that I
can do in C# that I cannot do in VO) and we have a compelling case to move forward.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
They may say that they hate it, but when those same clients come to you asking for
advice about upgrades, the future, how they should manage their businesses, etc
etc, if you fail to provide them with this advice, based upon the current state of
the art, then they will not respect you, and you will lose their confidence.
I would say rather "... based on good solutions". .Net, Windows, Unix -
all the same, effectiveness matters. At least in my playground <g>.
Yes. My point was that you need to be able to give high quality, informed advice. If you
are ill-prepared and/or ill-informed ...
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
They are
looking for solutions they can use for years and not for days. Or is
this different with your customers?
No, this is correct, but they are also looking for far more than just this.
As you just said, we need to be constantly improving our products, but that process
involves far, far more than just cutting code.
Plase pay attention to the fact that new != better [not always]. The
fact of being new itself doesn't guarantee the success. Remember push
techology, WAP boom, videoconferences... where are they now?
WAP boom???

Never !

I laughed when I first saw that poor excuse for a marketing party; I'm still laughing at
it.

Likewise push, er, um, ah .... "technology" ??? No, not ever.

Videoconferencing is still coming, and I've yet to see anyone say that it's "here". It'll
be a little way behind VOIP, which I expect to start to take off over the next 18 months
or so.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
When I see the benefits of a new development, I will be the first to
use it.
But, unless you're undertaking an active process of reviewing new technologies, how
in the world will you see (or see the potential for) the benefits ? If you're
relying on others to do the research, then you're going to end up as roadkill on
the technological highway.
What about 'I need - I search' way? Change for the change? Uhm. Surely
The problem is that with that approach you're already behind the curve. In our industry
we're expected to be pushing towards the edge, not straggling along behind it, like a
teenager taken shopping with his mum!
Post by torero
we need some basic development to keep up with GUI look though. But the
better way seems to be tracking down trends, not tools. Tools are
derivative, methinks.
Trends, tools, technology: we need to keep ourselves up to date with all of this.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by D.J.W. van Kooten
I only know what they produce and support in
the OS and Office market. Any market which is monopolized loses...
Neither market is monopolised.
Please #define 'the monopoly'...
It wasn't I who used the the term; Dick ?
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
You are free to use Linux, or Mac, StarOffice, whatever. Nobody has twisted your
arms to use MS products.
In laws terms - not. In real terms - OperOffice, Linux server
installations. That's all. Compare OpenSource OS desktop choice with car
choice. Can't you see the difference? Can't you see the monopoly?
KDE/GNOME? Not for this time, I suppose.
No.

I have Linux and Macs running here as a matter of course. I don't see any monopolies,
yhet all systems here talk happily amongst themselves.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Rather than jump and groan about it, you should be exploring all of its options and
features, to better enhance your offerings, knowledge, and marketability.
And this is why I am about buying C# soon. But... why give up VO? I
still can't see the point.
I've never suggested giving up on VO. My pointhas always been to maintain an open mind
and remain attuned to all of the changes that we will encounter.



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
torero
2003-11-28 11:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
Invited the spokesmen of various companies, told them to issue the
invoice, then, with sadistic smile, told them 'And now, please do it
again without the mouse'. Vital point, I'd say, considering that daily
turnover held lots of tens of documents per person. None of those
brillant 'state-of the art' solutions survived.
I see that as simply being a matter of poor design. I agree that apps should be designed
to function without a mouse, but that by no means excludes Windows apps; it just focusses
the design aspect more finely. This is a good thing, IMHO.
You hit the point. Many developers I know focus on technology itself.
This is also the point why I don't trust RADs abilities to _rapidly_
develop applications. What [advanced] RADs features are for if I have to
fine tune it later? The second point is the fact that [at least in my
surrounding] IT stuff has a very thin voice upon computer-aided
management systems choice. So at the very beginning good-looking app has
a plus vs. state-of-the-art, but poorly visually designed software.

In areas and software I met reverse dependency coming: the better look
and design, the older technology. Explanation is simple: constant human
resources. The more people you push in research the less people you have
in design. If new technology doesn't offer anything _really_ helpful and
innovative to customer [not to developer!], it usually loses with known
solutions that are better tested and to which customers get used to. Let
alone new solutions' costs.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
accounting, aim at Mrs. X of accounting. Are you sure Mrs. X of
accounting needs all the .Net stuff?
What do _you_ think "all the .net stuff" might be?
That's a serious question ...
I am almost an ignorant, really. Multi-platform working and better
security. Did I miss something? <g> To tell the truth, I'm looking from
pragmatical point of view. If I need free webserver, I start to look for
one. Once upon a time I needed better reports editor than CA-RET, so I
decided to buy VO2.6. And so on. As I told you I gonna look at C# soon
but for the time I cannot define big pros of migrating from VO or even
serious interest in C#. Maybe if I'll learn more; but it's the deadlock <g>
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
When I talk to my customer, he
asks for the benefits and costs, not for technology used [in acceptable
But they equally want to be sure that the money they're going to spend on the
technological solution is going to give them good value and longevity. I cannot seriously
guarantee that with a solution based on DOS or W9x.
I still can with VO, and I certainly can with .Net.
"Certainly"? All we can guarantee is few years more. You presume MS is
about to issue .Net platform and harvest income for the rest of its
days? We both talk only about sooner or later deadline.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
words with more modern one". OK, I switched from VO2.5->2.6 and I can
see the benefits. But switch to C# ONLY because it's new and cool and
offers advanced options that neither me not my clients need, if Vo
satisfies my needs?...
I certainly wouldn't suggest switching because C# is cool. But it does have advanced
features, many of which make my tasks easier. If my tasks are made easier, that should
translate to a reduced cost to my customer.
You see, it all depends on alternative costs. I don't stay hard with VO,
but it can happen I will do some things 10 minutes faster in C# while
learning C# will take me uncomparable time.

Besides, reduced costs are not absolute value. Suppose you wrote VB app.
VB is still modern language, right? What about costs reduction when the
whole app is not .Net compatibile and must be rewritten?
Post by Gary Stark
Add to that the stability of the platform (and the fact that there are some tasks that I
can do in C# that I cannot do in VO) and we have a compelling case to move forward.
If you compete in highly advanced-IT market every month counts. Some IT
people can wait a while. The rest will probably learn both.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
I would say rather "... based on good solutions". .Net, Windows, Unix -
all the same, effectiveness matters. At least in my playground <g>.
Yes. My point was that you need to be able to give high quality, informed advice. If you
are ill-prepared and/or ill-informed ...
Yes. But if you meet customer's needs but your market rival uses newer
technology you send the customer to him? On the other side, economic
calculation may cause you to suggest rather older solution than writing
new app from scratch.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
Plase pay attention to the fact that new != better [not always]. The
fact of being new itself doesn't guarantee the success. Remember push
techology, WAP boom, videoconferences... where are they now?
WAP boom???
Never !
I laughed when I first saw that poor excuse for a marketing party; I'm still laughing at
it.
_You_ did, I notice. Others not.
Post by Gary Stark
Videoconferencing is still coming, and I've yet to see anyone say that it's "here". It'll
be a little way behind VOIP, which I expect to start to take off over the next 18 months
or so.
Maybe offtopic, but I heard very simple explanation why videoconferences
will never be the success: people are not willing to look perfectly well
every time they want to talk or wait for talk. Simple and convincing,
isn't it? Bets are welcome <g>.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
What about 'I need - I search' way? Change for the change? Uhm. Surely
The problem is that with that approach you're already behind the curve. In our industry
we're expected to be pushing towards the edge, not straggling along behind it, like a
teenager taken shopping with his mum!
I said 'I need - I search' in terms of serious development, not in
knowlege itself. I am researching all the time, reading press and so on.
But it doesn't result in 'hurrah!'s every time when MS is issuing a new
piece of soft. But you probably think the same...
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
we need some basic development to keep up with GUI look though. But the
better way seems to be tracking down trends, not tools. Tools are
derivative, methinks.
Trends, tools, technology: we need to keep ourselves up to date with all of this.
But keep in mind dependencies chains, technology for people. Othwerwise
you can get stuck in useless gadgets only for they are 'state-of-the
art' like most do.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
You are free to use Linux, or Mac, StarOffice, whatever. Nobody has twisted your
arms to use MS products.
In laws terms - not. In real terms - OperOffice, Linux server
installations. That's all. Compare OpenSource OS desktop choice with car
choice. Can't you see the difference? Can't you see the monopoly?
KDE/GNOME? Not for this time, I suppose.
No.
I have Linux and Macs running here as a matter of course. I don't see any monopolies,
yhet all systems here talk happily amongst themselves.
Mine too. But I say about large Linux existence on desktops, not servers.
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Rather than jump and groan about it, you should be exploring all of its options and
features, to better enhance your offerings, knowledge, and marketability.
And this is why I am about buying C# soon. But... why give up VO? I
still can't see the point.
I've never suggested giving up on VO. My pointhas always been to maintain an open mind
and remain attuned to all of the changes that we will encounter.
So do I; I hope our open minds will not lead us to deadlocks :)

Best regards,
--
Lukasz `torero' Karcz OMK
http://www.torero.eu.org
Gary Stark
2003-11-28 19:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
Invited the spokesmen of various companies, told them to issue the
invoice, then, with sadistic smile, told them 'And now, please do it
again without the mouse'. Vital point, I'd say, considering that daily
turnover held lots of tens of documents per person. None of those
brillant 'state-of the art' solutions survived.
I see that as simply being a matter of poor design. I agree that apps should be designed
to function without a mouse, but that by no means excludes Windows apps; it just focusses
the design aspect more finely. This is a good thing, IMHO.
You hit the point.
Yes, I know. :)
Post by torero
Many developers I know focus on technology itself.
Many so-called developers haven't got a clue about the development process. They can paint a
screen, attach some data soruces, and that's about it. Sometimes that's good enough.

Often it's not.
Post by torero
This is also the point why I don't trust RADs abilities to _rapidly_
develop applications.
Yep. Same here. They can do great jobs of prototyping, but at some point the prototyping has to
stop.
Post by torero
in design. If new technology doesn't offer anything _really_ helpful and
innovative to customer [not to developer!], it usually loses with known
Correct. But sometimes the end-benefits to the customer might be intangible or just buried
beneath the surface: a seamless COM interface, for instance, or better performance over a large
LAN.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
accounting, aim at Mrs. X of accounting. Are you sure Mrs. X of
accounting needs all the .Net stuff?
What do _you_ think "all the .net stuff" might be?
That's a serious question ...
I am almost an ignorant, really. Multi-platform working and better
security. Did I miss something?
The multi-platform stuff is a big marketing push, and while it's there, from a developer's
perspective it's a minor point.

It's certainly got far better security, but it's also a better Winforms environment, with a
very rich and robust class heirarchy that we (and our clients' applications) can hook into and
take advantage of. I'm certainly neither an expert nor an advocate, but a short but serious
play within the environment (enough to become comfortable and competent with the features) was
enough to tell me that this is not VB3.
Post by torero
<g> To tell the truth, I'm looking from
pragmatical point of view. If I need free webserver, I start to look for
Apache/Linux is good for this ...
Post by torero
one. Once upon a time I needed better reports editor than CA-RET, so I
Who doesn't? :)
Post by torero
decided to buy VO2.6. And so on. As I told you I gonna look at C# soon
but for the time I cannot define big pros of migrating from VO or even
serious interest in C#.
And that's the totally wrong approach to be looking at it from, IMHO.

I think you should be exploring it as an educational, self-development, or research exercise.
But you should be doing that very seriously.

Any migration needs and/or paths will become self-evidient through your normal business
routines, but you need to be armed with the knowledge beforehand.

If you don't know, you cannot compare and make the call, but if you do, your decision processes
will be enriched, and better quality decisions will follow.

That's the deal, AFAIC.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
When I talk to my customer, he
asks for the benefits and costs, not for technology used [in acceptable
But they equally want to be sure that the money they're going to spend on the
technological solution is going to give them good value and longevity. I cannot seriously
guarantee that with a solution based on DOS or W9x.
I still can with VO, and I certainly can with .Net.
"Certainly"? All we can guarantee is few years more. You presume MS is
about to issue .Net platform and harvest income for the rest of its
days? We both talk only about sooner or later deadline.
MS has (to my knowledge) certainly announced that the .Net platform will be included in its
upcoming OSs, and that its security will also be a feature of those platforms. Will you be
comfortable supporting the needs that the new security regime imposes upon your clients'
applications when they buy a new box that comes with the new OS?
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
words with more modern one". OK, I switched from VO2.5->2.6 and I can
see the benefits. But switch to C# ONLY because it's new and cool and
offers advanced options that neither me not my clients need, if Vo
satisfies my needs?...
I certainly wouldn't suggest switching because C# is cool. But it does have advanced
features, many of which make my tasks easier. If my tasks are made easier, that should
translate to a reduced cost to my customer.
You see, it all depends on alternative costs. I don't stay hard with VO,
but it can happen I will do some things 10 minutes faster in C# while
learning C# will take me uncomparable time.
If you're comfortable with VO, you will need to make about a week's investment in C# to become
comfortable and somewhat competent there. It took me well under that length of time, btw.

But once you are at that point, you will start to see some significant benefits.
Post by torero
Besides, reduced costs are not absolute value. Suppose you wrote VB app.
VB is still modern language, right? What about costs reduction when the
whole app is not .Net compatibile and must be rewritten?
The app can easily be converted to VB.Net, actually.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Add to that the stability of the platform (and the fact that there are some tasks that I
can do in C# that I cannot do in VO) and we have a compelling case to move forward.
If you compete in highly advanced-IT market every month counts. Some IT
people can wait a while. The rest will probably learn both.
To some extent, yes. But at what cost? I see a great cost in NOT learning.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
I would say rather "... based on good solutions". .Net, Windows, Unix -
all the same, effectiveness matters. At least in my playground <g>.
Yes. My point was that you need to be able to give high quality, informed advice. If you
are ill-prepared and/or ill-informed ...
Yes. But if you meet customer's needs but your market rival uses newer
technology you send the customer to him?
That's one approach. <g>

My approach would be to deliver the best solution based upon the best available technology.
Newer doesn't mean best. Best means best.

But unless you've explored all of the available technologies, how do you decide which is the
best for the job?
Post by torero
On the other side, economic
calculation may cause you to suggest rather older solution than writing
new app from scratch.
Absolutely.

But you still need to know all of the facts.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
WAP boom???
Never !
I laughed when I first saw that poor excuse for a marketing party; I'm still laughing at
it.
_You_ did, I notice. Others not.
Yes. I rarely listen to the marketing hype. I know very few developers who do; it's not in our
nature. WAP was always going to be a braindead technology looking for a problem to solve. The
marketing dweebs thought it would be cool to surf the net using a high priced low bandwidth
connection on a device that displays about 32 characters of text. it doesn't take too many
brain cells to see just how dumb that concept is. Of course, marketing dweebs and brain cells
don't often go together too well.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Videoconferencing is still coming, and I've yet to see anyone say that it's "here". It'll
be a little way behind VOIP, which I expect to start to take off over the next 18 months
or so.
Maybe offtopic, but I heard very simple explanation why videoconferences
will never be the success: people are not willing to look perfectly well
every time they want to talk or wait for talk. Simple and convincing,
isn't it? Bets are welcome <g>.
Are you talking about video conferencing, or video phone calls? The two are similar, and quite
closely related. But they are not the same.

For video phone calls, yes, that's true, but there are other needs too, that will eventually
drive this form of application to an eventual satisfactory level of market acceptance.

Conferencing is entirely different, and business (professional) needs will override any such
personal vanity issues.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
What about 'I need - I search' way? Change for the change? Uhm. Surely
The problem is that with that approach you're already behind the curve. In our industry
we're expected to be pushing towards the edge, not straggling along behind it, like a
teenager taken shopping with his mum!
I said 'I need - I search' in terms of serious development, not in
knowlege itself. I am researching all the time, reading press and so on.
I need to learn, so my research involves learning, exploring, and gaining a good understanding,
so that I'm (hopefully) not caught out.
Post by torero
But it doesn't result in 'hurrah!'s every time when MS is issuing a new
piece of soft. But you probably think the same...
I do. MS make many best of breed products.

They also make a lot of crap. Remember Bob, anyone?

With me, reputation counts for very little: I make my calls based upon my own assessments, and
those of people whose judgement I've learned to trust.
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
we need some basic development to keep up with GUI look though. But the
better way seems to be tracking down trends, not tools. Tools are
derivative, methinks.
Trends, tools, technology: we need to keep ourselves up to date with all of this.
But keep in mind dependencies chains, technology for people. Othwerwise
you can get stuck in useless gadgets only for they are 'state-of-the
art' like most do.
There's lots of useless gadgets out there.

WAP phones spring readily to mind.

Geoff had an 8-track deck fitted into his new car last year, I believe. <g>

Grum has one in his golf cart! <gd&rlh>
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
Post by torero
Post by Gary Stark
You are free to use Linux, or Mac, StarOffice, whatever. Nobody has twisted your
arms to use MS products.
In laws terms - not. In real terms - OperOffice, Linux server
installations. That's all. Compare OpenSource OS desktop choice with car
choice. Can't you see the difference? Can't you see the monopoly?
KDE/GNOME? Not for this time, I suppose.
No.
I have Linux and Macs running here as a matter of course. I don't see any monopolies,
yhet all systems here talk happily amongst themselves.
Mine too. But I say about large Linux existence on desktops, not servers.
That will not happen in the mainstream, but that's mainly because of the arrogance that too
many Linux people have.

Linux is, quite simply, not as easy to use as Windoze. Installing some (what should be) simple
applications can be the cause of great angst, and Mable in the office hasn't got a hope in
Hades of dealing with it.

But that is a different argument, and OT for this thread.




--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-26 22:01:10 UTC
Permalink
snip[ Programs are written with a head, not with development tool... ]

So to debug you simply take a head-ache tablet like Asprin. <G>

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------------
Post by Denis Mitrofanov
Hi, Jamie
Post by Jamie
Switch C# .Net. You can do anything in C#.
Can I tight a screw with C#? <g>
Post by Jamie
It will solve all your problems
Hmmm... I have one very-very bad programmer in my team. Is swithing on C#
made him a professional? <g>
Programs are written with a head, not with development tool...
Denis
Denis Mitrofanov
2003-11-27 07:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Phil
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ Programs are written with a head, not with development tool... ]
So to debug you simply take a head-ache tablet like Asprin. <G>
No. Usually for _true_ debug I take vodka. But I know many cases when Asprin
was neccessary for debugging... I think you too. <g>

Denis
Gosia Zieliñska
2003-11-26 13:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,
Thanks for your help.
Malgorzata
Denis Mitrofanov
2003-11-26 13:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Gosia
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
Be careful since:

1. Delphi optimiser move parameters to registers to minimize stack usage.
Use stdcall convention to pass parameters exactly in API (VO's PASCAL
convention) via stack.

2. var... in Delphi are just a pointers. It means that these declarations
are the same:

var B: Buffer or P: PBuffer, where PBuffer is ^Buffer.

So you can easily pass a pointer.

Denis
Rick Spence
2003-11-29 04:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Try allocating 256 bytes of heap memory and pass a pointer to that as
the fourth parameter. The Var keyword in Delphi means the parameter can
be changed - so in this case it's used to return 256 bytes to the
calling program. So, even if your address of tab had worked, it would
have to be a pointer to 256 bytes of memory (which you haven't allocated).

I don't remember how you allocate memory from the heap - I'm sure
someone else will pipe in - but there should be some sort of Malloc().

Not sure about the fifth parameter either - the Pascal routine is
expecting 256 characters. I doubt the VO Array is compatible with this -
I'd try a VO string there.

Regards,

Rick
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var InputBuffer:tBuffer;
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-29 06:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Rick,

Bloody amzing the type of people who help out around here.

Graham
Post by Rick Spence
Hi,
Try allocating 256 bytes of heap memory and pass a pointer to that as
the fourth parameter. The Var keyword in Delphi means the parameter can
be changed - so in this case it's used to return 256 bytes to the
calling program. So, even if your address of tab had worked, it would
have to be a pointer to 256 bytes of memory (which you haven't allocated).
I don't remember how you allocate memory from the heap - I'm sure
someone else will pipe in - but there should be some sort of Malloc().
Not sure about the fifth parameter either - the Pascal routine is
expecting 256 characters. I doubt the VO Array is compatible with this -
I'd try a VO string there.
Regards,
Rick
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Rick Spence
2003-11-29 23:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Grum,

I've started reading the arguments here - you know what they say - "the
more things change..."

While I've got you - what do you think about all those interfaces and
class methods in the .net class libraries? There's a specific language
feature for Interfaces in Delphi, so we're all used to that (does VO 2
have it?). And of coruse there are class methods but the VCL (Delphi's
class library doesn't use them much). For ex., there are separate
function for integer to string, time of day etc. - much better as class
methods IMO.

Rick
Post by Graham McKechnie
Rick,
Bloody amzing the type of people who help out around here.
Graham
Post by Rick Spence
Hi,
Try allocating 256 bytes of heap memory and pass a pointer to that as
the fourth parameter. The Var keyword in Delphi means the parameter can
be changed - so in this case it's used to return 256 bytes to the
calling program. So, even if your address of tab had worked, it would
have to be a pointer to 256 bytes of memory (which you haven't allocated).
I don't remember how you allocate memory from the heap - I'm sure
someone else will pipe in - but there should be some sort of Malloc().
Not sure about the fifth parameter either - the Pascal routine is
expecting 256 characters. I doubt the VO Array is compatible with this -
I'd try a VO string there.
Regards,
Rick
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive
AS
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer
AS
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 13:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Rick,

Thanks for bringing up the subject of interfaces. VO 2 doesn't have them,
and it's something I've been asking for. The only new language element added
to VO 2 that wasn't already in VO 1 was strong typing for methods, and even
that generates untyped code too unless you use a special pragma.
--
Ginny
Post by Rick Spence
Grum,
I've started reading the arguments here - you know what they say - "the
more things change..."
While I've got you - what do you think about all those interfaces and
class methods in the .net class libraries? There's a specific language
feature for Interfaces in Delphi, so we're all used to that (does VO 2
have it?). And of coruse there are class methods but the VCL (Delphi's
class library doesn't use them much). For ex., there are separate
function for integer to string, time of day etc. - much better as class
methods IMO.
Rick
Post by Graham McKechnie
Rick,
Bloody amzing the type of people who help out around here.
Graham
Post by Rick Spence
Hi,
Try allocating 256 bytes of heap memory and pass a pointer to that as
the fourth parameter. The Var keyword in Delphi means the parameter can
be changed - so in this case it's used to return 256 bytes to the
calling program. So, even if your address of tab had worked, it would
have to be a pointer to 256 bytes of memory (which you haven't allocated).
I don't remember how you allocate memory from the heap - I'm sure
someone else will pipe in - but there should be some sort of Malloc().
Not sure about the fifth parameter either - the Pascal routine is
expecting 256 characters. I doubt the VO Array is compatible with this -
I'd try a VO string there.
Regards,
Rick
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive
AS
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer
AS
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
Lars-Eric Gisslén
2003-11-29 11:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Rick,

You are very close.
Post by Rick Spence
someone else will pipe in - but there should be some sort of Malloc().
The VO functions MemAlloc() and MemReAlloc() should resolve to calls to
HeapAlloc and HeapReAlloc API calls (according to Sabo). I suspect the
memory is allocated on the ProcessHeap
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
LOCAL DIM tBuffer[256] AS BYTE
--
Regards,
Lars-Eric Gisslén
**Reply only to this Newsgroup**
Any reply as private email will only generate
a spam complaint to your ISP!
Post by Rick Spence
Hi,
Try allocating 256 bytes of heap memory and pass a pointer to that as
the fourth parameter. The Var keyword in Delphi means the parameter can
be changed - so in this case it's used to return 256 bytes to the
calling program. So, even if your address of tab had worked, it would
have to be a pointer to 256 bytes of memory (which you haven't allocated).
I don't remember how you allocate memory from the heap - I'm sure
someone else will pipe in - but there should be some sort of Malloc().
Not sure about the fifth parameter either - the Pascal routine is
expecting 256 characters. I doubt the VO Array is compatible with this -
I'd try a VO string there.
Regards,
Rick
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
Hello All,
I have a big problem.
I have .dll file. This file was compiled in DELPHI.
function RSSequence(ControlCode:longword;
QuantityOfBytesToReceive:longword;
QuantityOfBytessToSend:longword; var
InputBuffer:tBuffer;
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
OutputBuffer:tBuffer):longword;
where
tBuffer = array[1..256] of byte
How can I declare var parameter InputBuffer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
_DLL FUNCTION RSSequence(ControlCode AS DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoreceive AS
DWORD, QuantityOfbytestoSend AS DWORD, INputBuffer AS PTR, outputBuffer AS
ARRAY) AS DWORD PASCAL:elzabdr.36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Post by Rick Spence
Post by Gosia Zieliñska
-------------------------------
LOCAL tab AS ARRAY
LOCAL tab1 AS ARRAY
And unfortunatelly this doesn't work propertly...
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