Discussion:
Thinking of VO again
(too old to reply)
Ian Henderson
2003-09-14 23:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Hello all
I've been away from dvpt. for awhile. Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days
I've done some windoze stuff but not much. Fooled around with Fivewin and
db2K (dBase) for a couple small apps.
Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to 32 bit
windows, I've starrted lurking on the xBase newsgroups like this one. I
have a couple questions, Actually more than a couple :-)

1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be recommended?
2. Where can I find sample classes or frameworks that will get me familiar
with "professional " application of the language and built-in classes?
3. In evaluating my optioms before I move forward, should I:
(a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with it?
( I know this sounds crazy, but I've read somewhwere that the language
hasn't changed much) or (b) download the crippled 30-day ttrial ( I
personally feel that 30 days isn't that much time for an in-depth
evaluation. Even Borland gives 60 days on C++ builder)
4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare VO vs
C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent
(b) Time to develop business apps.

I'm considering both options (VO and C++). I have no intentions of becoming
a full-time developer, since I mainly intend to do a few in-house upgrades
( I did the original stuff years go before moving onto other
responsibilitiies) and maybe a couple vertical apps in my spare time.

Hoping to get some perspecftive re the above.
Thanks in advance.

Ian
Phil McGuinness
2003-09-15 00:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

snip[ Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days ]
Those were the days...... this was when men were men ! <BG>
==
snip[ 1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be recommended? ]
VO and few 3rd party tools is all you need. Lets see VO + MDReport or
ReportPro + VOPP and bBrowser.
Thats about all you really need to develop some superb applications.
==
snip[ 2. Where can I find sample classes or frameworks that will get me
familiar with "professional " application of the language and built-in
classes? ]
The gallery in VO "gives you a Windows framework" to get started. The
classes are covered in the help but the new help in VO2,7 should be a lot
better.
==
snip[ (a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with
it?]
First thing throw a bucket of cold water on that.. waste of time these
days.
==
snip[ but I've read somewhwere that the language hasn't changed much) ]
An extensive Object langugae like VO does not need to change too much. It
hooks into the API directly and you can add to Objcts classes and build your
own classes. The skies the limit.
==
snip[ 4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare
VO vs C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent ]

Competent... mmm! I am sure somebdoy could be "competent" with some help
in 30 days. If you understand an xBASE dialect and using DBF's and INDEXES
and event driven programming and OBJECTS you are away.
==
snip[ (b) Time to develop business apps. ]

Wow.. did one the other day in say a few days from absolute scratch... and I
am still working on another after 5 years. Depends on the business
application and factors that are too abstract to factor in

The bottom line VO works very well, is very solid and so are the
applications developed in it.

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
----
Post by Ian Henderson
Hello all
I've been away from dvpt. for awhile. Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days
I've done some windoze stuff but not much. Fooled around with Fivewin and
Ian Henderson
2003-09-15 02:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil McGuinness
Ian,
snip[ Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days ]
Those were the days...... this was when men were men ! <BG>
****
And boys were boys! Some of us who weren't CompSci heavyweights like some
of you folks here, were able to learn a lot and still deliver some powerful
stuff.
Post by Phil McGuinness
==
snip[ 1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be
recommended? ]
Post by Phil McGuinness
VO and few 3rd party tools is all you need. Lets see VO + MDReport or
ReportPro + VOPP and bBrowser.
****
Are these the tools now in 2.6?
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ (a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with
it?]
First thing throw a bucket of cold water on that.. waste of time these
days.
==
****
Ouch! Guess I won't have a chance to exercise my Vaio's external floppy
drive.
Actually I "found" it (VO 1.0c) while looking through some old stuff. Along
with it was Rick Spence's VO book. I started thumbing through it, and it
really gives a good intro to windows and OO concepts. Since I've covered
much of that ground already, do you think this book (language features, VO
classes etc) is of any value?
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ but I've read somewhere that the language hasn't changed much) ]
An extensive Object language like VO does not need to change too much. It
hooks into the API directly and you can add to Objects classes and build
your
Post by Phil McGuinness
own classes. The skies the limit.
==
****
Glad to hear this!!
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ 4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare
VO vs C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent ]
Competent... mmm! I am sure somebody could be "competent" with some help
in 30 days. If you understand an xBASE dialect and using DBF's and INDEXES
and event driven programming and OBJECTS you are away.
==
snip[ (b) Time to develop business apps. ]
Wow.. did one the other day in say a few days from absolute scratch... and I
am still working on another after 5 years. Depends on the business
application and factors that are too abstract to factor in
****
True. What I'm interested in is experiences of _relative_ productivity
comparing both environments. IOW if you considered yourself competent in
both environments and wanted to start an app from scratch (Eg. Field and
depot service Mgmt. with job costing and billing) which would you select?
The assumption being that productivity (time to completion) is the dominant
criterion.
Post by Phil McGuinness
The bottom line VO works very well, is very solid and so are the
applications developed in it.
****
Also glad to hear this. My only concern is that, now CA has passed it on to
a "smaller" shop, it may be harder for it to gain acceptance??
i.e. in spite of their neglect of VO. most everyone knows CA, hence it's
credibility in the wider community may have fallen a notch??
Just thinking aloud, and hopefully I'm wrong.

Thx for the feedback.

IanH
Phil McGuinness
2003-09-15 03:18:11 UTC
Permalink
snip[ My only concern is that, now CA has passed it on to a "smaller" shop,
it may be harder for it to gain acceptance?? ]

Big companies are using Open Source and products not from main stream
players all the time.
I get asked all the time what it is it written and I say "Visual Objects"
and they say wow it is fast..

Whether it was owned by CA or Microsoft makes no difference.

snip[ IOW if you considered yourself competent in both environments and
wanted to start an app from scratch (Eg. Field and
depot service Mgmt. with job costing and billing) which would you select? ]

Which would I select ???? This should draw some interesting comments.

One area I think you start on is what is important to you and client in
features.
Do you need fantastic system security for each user. ? This will be
important for Menus and general access which if added later may be a major
job. Do you want to "MIGRATE" a Clipper application and use say .NTX and
.DBF and therefore the VO applications needs to allow for this.. There are
so many little issues that need to be considered.

Personally if I had existing DBF's I would build all my servers and Indexes
and setup common FIELDSPECs to all the fields of the servers.. Takes a bit
of time but well worth it in the end.

I would then consider my Menus and what was going to be there and looking at
the DOS application to make sure I had same or similar functionality.

I would turn off generating Access and Assigns of the Servers and the
Windows. Confusing to new users and a waste of code space.

I would then start on my Shell and window class designs.. and I would use
the same set of common fieldspecs on all your Windows.
==
snip[ The assumption being that productivity (time to completion) is the
dominant criterion. ]
Unfortunately it just takes time... and the more you use the product the
faster you get .. but it is slow going for a new user.
You have the group to support you though.

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------
Gary Stark
2003-09-15 06:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Ian,
Post by Phil McGuinness
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ 1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be
recommended? ]
Post by Phil McGuinness
VO and few 3rd party tools is all you need. Lets see VO + MDReport or
ReportPro + VOPP and bBrowser.
****
Are these the tools now in 2.6?
Not MD Report, but there are limited versions of the others included. Certainly
enough to enable you to be productive.
Post by Phil McGuinness
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ (a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with
it?]
First thing throw a bucket of cold water on that.. waste of time these
days.
==
****
Ouch! Guess I won't have a chance to exercise my Vaio's external floppy
drive.
I don't even know if I could find mine ...
Post by Phil McGuinness
Actually I "found" it (VO 1.0c) while looking through some old stuff. Along
with it was Rick Spence's VO book. I started thumbing through it, and it
really gives a good intro to windows and OO concepts. Since I've covered
much of that ground already, do you think this book (language features, VO
classes etc) is of any value?
I think that it would still retain some relevance.
Post by Phil McGuinness
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ 4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare
VO vs C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent ]
Competent... mmm! I am sure somebody could be "competent" with some help
in 30 days. If you understand an xBASE dialect and using DBF's and
INDEXES
Post by Phil McGuinness
and event driven programming and OBJECTS you are away.
==
snip[ (b) Time to develop business apps. ]
Wow.. did one the other day in say a few days from absolute scratch... and
I
Post by Phil McGuinness
am still working on another after 5 years. Depends on the business
application and factors that are too abstract to factor in
****
True. What I'm interested in is experiences of _relative_ productivity
comparing both environments. IOW if you considered yourself competent in
both environments and wanted to start an app from scratch (Eg. Field and
depot service Mgmt. with job costing and billing) which would you select?
The assumption being that productivity (time to completion) is the dominant
criterion.
This is a much more meaningful question. I would think that for a competent
programmer, writing a business application, VO is a more productive tool than
C++.
Post by Phil McGuinness
Post by Phil McGuinness
The bottom line VO works very well, is very solid and so are the
applications developed in it.
****
Also glad to hear this. My only concern is that, now CA has passed it on to
a "smaller" shop, it may be harder for it to gain acceptance??
I think that VO is doing fairly well despite CA's input. GrafxSoft are only
improving this situation.
Post by Phil McGuinness
i.e. in spite of their neglect of VO. most everyone knows CA, hence it's
credibility in the wider community may have fallen a notch??
Just thinking aloud, and hopefully I'm wrong.
I'm not sure that VO did fall, given that CA had left it lying in the gutter,
effectively to whither and die.

You're perfectly correct though in asking the question as to what of its future,
and that is really up to Brian and his team. The problem is that VO was
flatlining under CA's management (for want of a more realistic word) and Brian
has at least shocked it back into breathing again.

I believe that one of the strengths though is in the elegance of the language,
and one of the more satisfying (personally, for me) aspects of being a VO
developer is to see the maturity and creativity that is evident in many of the
applications that we see at the various conferences around the world.



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Rob
2003-09-16 04:43:49 UTC
Permalink
< Rob >, without a thought for the consequences, immediately typed:
Ian,
My 2 cents worth...

In addition to all the other comments here, if you have a background in
Clipper, moving to VO will probably be easier than starting from scratch
with another language, and you can leverage the majority of your existing
code.

Many of us here are in for the long haul with VO, although not ignoring
newer technologies like C#, PHP etc. etc. If you're just getting back into
development, VO could be an easier way to get into the mindset etc.

As for learning resources, there were a couple of books with examples of
moving from Clipper to VO ( albeit VO 1 ) by such luminaries as Straley,
Rick Spence etc. that you might be able to pick up on Amazon in their used
books sections. Could help with your migration of the Clipper stuff. The
book Exploring VO 25. by Sandy Hood is pretty good also - think it's
available at GrafxSoft.

HTH
--
Rob Grattan
R&D Software Pty. Ltd.
Gary Stark
2003-09-15 00:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
Hello all
I've been away from dvpt. for awhile. Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days
Only 5.2? <sniff!>

Just a beginner, eh ? <g>

Welcome.
Post by Ian Henderson
Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to 32 bit
windows, I've starrted lurking on the xBase newsgroups like this one. I
have a couple questions, Actually more than a couple :-)
The more the merrier.
Post by Ian Henderson
1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be recommended?
The best resources, by far, are the devcons that are held around the world at
various times. Where are you located? You just missed the US event, the next one
is in Germany.

Look at www.Cavo.com for lots of help and samples.

And spend plenty of time hanging around the bar here at clc.visual-objects. You
won't find a better resource.
Post by Ian Henderson
2. Where can I find sample classes or frameworks that will get me familiar
with "professional " application of the language and built-in classes?
As Phil suggested, look at the gallery, and again, Cavo.com. Ask questions.
Don't be backwards in coming forward.
Post by Ian Henderson
(a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with it?
No.

Absobloodylutely not.

That sort of attitude will end up costing you heaps, and you'll be relegated to
the depths of despair.

In all seriousness, download the crippleware version, and ask lots of questions.
You may tell Brian your CC number when (if) you're ready to move into the more
serious development phases of your process.

2.6 is a vastly superior product to 1.0. The only thing they share, really, is
the name.

Oh yes, and CA's abysmal attempts to market the product. <g>
Post by Ian Henderson
( I know this sounds crazy, but I've read somewhwere that the language
The language hasn't, but the environment and stability have.
Post by Ian Henderson
hasn't changed much) or (b) download the crippled 30-day ttrial ( I
personally feel that 30 days isn't that much time for an in-depth
evaluation. Even Borland gives 60 days on C++ builder)
Ask the right questions, find the right samples, and you'll be amazed how
quickly you'll become proficient.

The real question is how au fait are you with Windows and event driven
programming, and/or OOP methodologies? That's where the real learning curves
lie.
Post by Ian Henderson
4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare VO vs
C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent
Have you looked at the .Net/C# platforms? I think that would be a more valid
basis for comparison, and a good VO programmer can become quite competent in C#
in less than a week. I know that's not the question you were asking, but I go
back to my statement that the learning of VO is not the major obstacle that you
are facing.

When you can deal with the environment you'll be working within, the toolset
becomes less of an issue.
Post by Ian Henderson
(b) Time to develop business apps.
As Phil said, what is the definition of a "buisness app" ?

Some stuff can be done in minutes, other stuff is never finished.
Post by Ian Henderson
I'm considering both options (VO and C++). I have no intentions of becoming
a full-time developer, since I mainly intend to do a few in-house upgrades
( I did the original stuff years go before moving onto other
responsibilitiies) and maybe a couple vertical apps in my spare time.
Hey ... we have trouble finding vertical programmers these days. <g>

Good luck, and welcome.

As I said, please ask lots of questions. Geoff likes the sound of his own voice,
and becomes very depressed when he thinks he's being ignored. <g>



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
ilias
2003-09-15 04:59:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:57:52 -0400, Ian Henderson <***@opus.co.tt> wrote:

[...]
Post by Ian Henderson
Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to 32
bit windows
[...]
Post by Ian Henderson
I'm considering both options (VO and C++). I have no intentions of
becoming a full-time developer, since I mainly intend to do a few in-
house upgrades
[...]

"...moving a larger in-house DOS app to 32 bit windows..."

results in

"...becoming a full-time developer..."

either you use VO or C++.

-

I suggest Borland C++ Builder with Advantage Database Server

http://www.extendedsystems.com/ADS/Evaluate+Today/_Free+Downloads.htm

-

if you like to use VO, i suggest to wait for the version VO27.

see some topics about

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=VO26&as_ugroup=comp.lang.clipper.visual-
objects&as_uauthors=***@abeon.com

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=VO27&as_ugroup=comp.lang.clipper.visual-
objects&as_uauthors=***@abeon.com
Will Chapman
2003-09-15 06:34:48 UTC
Permalink
<ilias> carefully considered, then typed:

| On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:57:52 -0400, Ian Henderson <***@opus.co.tt>
| wrote:
|| Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to
|| 32
|| bit windows

| I suggest Borland C++ Builder with Advantage Database Server

Ilias

..but I got the impression that this DOS app was written in Clipper.
If so, by using C++ he'll loose all of the significent benefits of being
able to use essentially the same business code that is in the existing
Clipper app.

In any event, as he is already familiar with Clipper/xBase/dBase syntax,
I would expect the VO route would have a significantly shallower
learning curve than dipping into C++.


Cheers......


Will Chapman
VOOG
ilias
2003-09-17 02:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Chapman
|| Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to
|| 32
|| bit windows
| I suggest Borland C++ Builder with Advantage Database Server
Ilias
..but I got the impression that this DOS app was written in Clipper.
If so, by using C++ he'll loose all of the significent benefits of being
able to use essentially the same business code that is in the existing
Clipper app.
you are right.
Post by Will Chapman
In any event, as he is already familiar with Clipper/xBase/dBase syntax,
I would expect the VO route would have a significantly shallower
learning curve than dipping into C++.
you are right, again.

-

I still suggest, based on his sayings, to switch to C++.
ilias
2003-09-17 05:01:42 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by ilias
Post by Will Chapman
Ilias
..but I got the impression that this DOS app was written in Clipper.
If so, by using C++ he'll loose all of the significent benefits of being
able to use essentially the same business code that is in the existing
Clipper app.
you are right.
Post by Will Chapman
In any event, as he is already familiar with Clipper/xBase/dBase syntax,
I would expect the VO route would have a significantly shallower
learning curve than dipping into C++.
you are right, again.
-
I still suggest, based on his sayings, to switch to C++.
or he could give www.xharbour.com a try.
Denis Mitrofanov
2003-09-15 06:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Ian
Post by Ian Henderson
Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to 32 bit
windows, I've starrted lurking on the xBase newsgroups like this one. I
have a couple questions, Actually more than a couple :-)
I have moved a large DOS app. to Windows under VO2.5b3 (finally) and it's
working fine. More than 1.5M lines of code, complex functionality, etc.

But I don't have used built-in Data components from VO. We have developed
our own stuff to simulate Clipper's modal environment, and it was a right
step. The traces of this stuff you can find on KnowVO, if you'll search for
MDDBU, for example.

As a result we have ported this application, it working fine and smooth
(even with DBF for 25 parallel users working), and GPF or 5333 if quite rare
things. Moreover most of functionality code (business) stay as it is or with
very minor changes.

There are a set of recommendations you SHOULD FOLLOW (it's just an
experience) if you'll start to convert code from Clipper to VO. And you'll
be success. If I can, why you can't?
Post by Ian Henderson
1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be recommended?
I am working with VO almost 4 years. The best learning resources for me was
(and is now): Help, MSDN, SDK and sources of another applications. I don't
see the books like 'How to create cool VO application fast...'. I saw such
books related to another dev. tools, but they are almost meaningless.
Post by Ian Henderson
2. Where can I find sample classes or frameworks that will get me familiar
with "professional " application of the language and built-in classes?
Ask in this NG <g>
Post by Ian Henderson
(a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with it?
( I know this sounds crazy, but I've read somewhwere that the language
hasn't changed much) or (b) download the crippled 30-day ttrial ( I
personally feel that 30 days isn't that much time for an in-depth
evaluation. Even Borland gives 60 days on C++ builder)
You should start with VO2.5b3 (IMHO).
Post by Ian Henderson
4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare VO vs
C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent
(b) Time to develop business apps.
C++ (C++ Builder) - too complex language, slow comliper, no built-in DBF
support, VCL approach is more then terrible, no untyped variables, no
built-in expression evaliation, so class symbolic calls, no.., no..., no...
Pluses: good output code, relative portability. Honestly I recommend to use
VC++ if you are targeting on C++. Much more robust IDE and compiler, code
quality and runtime is just excellent.

VO2.5b3 - quite nice language, project-oriented repository, exists all what
is missing above. Almost support Clipper code. Minuses: somewhat unstable
runtime and weak compiler quality. But you can create stable projects
though.

Denis
Jamie
2003-09-15 15:27:33 UTC
Permalink
At the risk of annoying people on the group again. Have you looked at C#
.Net? It is much easier than C/C++ to develop in since you don't need to
worry about memory management. The syntax is just as easy as VO to learn.
The .Net Framework provides you with a rich source of *built-in classes*

Also it will save you having to re-write you application in 5 years to .Net.
A number of us VOers are moving their applications over to C# because we see
it coming.

Jamie
Post by Ian Henderson
Hello all
I've been away from dvpt. for awhile. Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days
I've done some windoze stuff but not much. Fooled around with Fivewin and
db2K (dBase) for a couple small apps.
Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to 32 bit
windows, I've starrted lurking on the xBase newsgroups like this one. I
have a couple questions, Actually more than a couple :-)
1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be recommended?
2. Where can I find sample classes or frameworks that will get me familiar
with "professional " application of the language and built-in classes?
(a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with it?
( I know this sounds crazy, but I've read somewhwere that the language
hasn't changed much) or (b) download the crippled 30-day ttrial ( I
personally feel that 30 days isn't that much time for an in-depth
evaluation. Even Borland gives 60 days on C++ builder)
4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare VO vs
C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent
(b) Time to develop business apps.
I'm considering both options (VO and C++). I have no intentions of becoming
a full-time developer, since I mainly intend to do a few in-house upgrades
( I did the original stuff years go before moving onto other
responsibilitiies) and maybe a couple vertical apps in my spare time.
Hoping to get some perspecftive re the above.
Thanks in advance.
Ian
Ian Henderson
2003-09-15 17:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie
At the risk of annoying people on the group again. Have you looked at C#
.Net? It is much easier than C/C++ to develop in since you don't need to
worry about memory management. The syntax is just as easy as VO to learn.
The .Net Framework provides you with a rich source of *built-in classes*
Also it will save you having to re-write you application in 5 years to .Net.
A number of us VOers are moving their applications over to C# because we see
it coming.
Jamie
****
I haven't considered this, partially due to what I (perhaps mistakenly )
think is the relative newness of the platform, and partially due to my own
ignorance. I'm a little wary of jumping onto each new M$ wave lest I get
battered when the tide comes in.
I'm a bit disappointed to hear that (significant?) numbers of developers are
abandoning the VO ship, just when I'm thinking it may not be a bad time to
get on board.
It's good to hear all the perspectives though.

Jamie, are you moving on, because you think there are more things that C#
does better than things that VO does better? I would think there is some
significant cost in moving apps across. Why not just at least maintain
these with VO and then consider alternatives for new apps as necessary?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

One other thing. What are the relative costs of the 2 environments. I know
it's probably not a consideration for most on this forum, but in our case,
there isn't going to be **huge** amts of development projects. The low cost
of VO plus it's "support" of legacy clipper may be a factor also.

Ian
Ginny Caughey
2003-09-15 17:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

I agree with Jamie that you should look at C# too. We have some new development
in C#, and also some major enhancement development to existing apps in VO, so
it's not true that all VO developers who work in C# are leaving VO. In my case I
think it's more accurate to say that I'm leaving C++. VO's support of Clipper
syntax is still a plus, although we are moving one Clipper app to C# at the
moment (and also completely redesigning it to take advantage of .Net
technology).

.Net is not a new platform these days - it's been out for 3 years now, and even
in beta it was more solid than VO is today. You'll spend $700 and up for Visual
Studio 2003 (depending on the version), but if you have the MSDN Universal
subscription like many of us already do for VO work, there's no extra cost. By
the time you figure in the price for VO 3rd party libs you'll want (if you don't
have them already) the costs are about the same.

One other thing to keep in mind is that you can use VO code from .Net apps, so
it's not necessarily an either/or choice. Since .Net doesn't do DBF access or
macro compilation as easily as VO, this will remain an attractive combination
for years to come allowing you to take advantage of the strengths of both
environments. And future versions of VO will probably make this even more
attractive by allowing you to build tiny VO apps that don't require a lot of
external DLLs to do the stuff that VO still does best.
--
Ginny
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by Jamie
At the risk of annoying people on the group again. Have you looked at C#
.Net? It is much easier than C/C++ to develop in since you don't need to
worry about memory management. The syntax is just as easy as VO to learn.
The .Net Framework provides you with a rich source of *built-in classes*
Also it will save you having to re-write you application in 5 years to
.Net.
Post by Jamie
A number of us VOers are moving their applications over to C# because we
see
Post by Jamie
it coming.
Jamie
****
I haven't considered this, partially due to what I (perhaps mistakenly )
think is the relative newness of the platform, and partially due to my own
ignorance. I'm a little wary of jumping onto each new M$ wave lest I get
battered when the tide comes in.
I'm a bit disappointed to hear that (significant?) numbers of developers are
abandoning the VO ship, just when I'm thinking it may not be a bad time to
get on board.
It's good to hear all the perspectives though.
Jamie, are you moving on, because you think there are more things that C#
does better than things that VO does better? I would think there is some
significant cost in moving apps across. Why not just at least maintain
these with VO and then consider alternatives for new apps as necessary?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
One other thing. What are the relative costs of the 2 environments. I know
it's probably not a consideration for most on this forum, but in our case,
there isn't going to be **huge** amts of development projects. The low cost
of VO plus it's "support" of legacy clipper may be a factor also.
Ian
Jamie
2003-09-15 17:49:39 UTC
Permalink
I agree with everything you said. Much clearer than my message.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Ian,
I agree with Jamie that you should look at C# too. We have some new development
in C#, and also some major enhancement development to existing apps in VO, so
it's not true that all VO developers who work in C# are leaving VO. In my case I
think it's more accurate to say that I'm leaving C++. VO's support of Clipper
syntax is still a plus, although we are moving one Clipper app to C# at the
moment (and also completely redesigning it to take advantage of .Net
technology).
.Net is not a new platform these days - it's been out for 3 years now, and even
in beta it was more solid than VO is today. You'll spend $700 and up for Visual
Studio 2003 (depending on the version), but if you have the MSDN Universal
subscription like many of us already do for VO work, there's no extra cost. By
the time you figure in the price for VO 3rd party libs you'll want (if you don't
have them already) the costs are about the same.
One other thing to keep in mind is that you can use VO code from .Net apps, so
it's not necessarily an either/or choice. Since .Net doesn't do DBF access or
macro compilation as easily as VO, this will remain an attractive combination
for years to come allowing you to take advantage of the strengths of both
environments. And future versions of VO will probably make this even more
attractive by allowing you to build tiny VO apps that don't require a lot of
external DLLs to do the stuff that VO still does best.
--
Ginny
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by Jamie
At the risk of annoying people on the group again. Have you looked at C#
.Net? It is much easier than C/C++ to develop in since you don't need to
worry about memory management. The syntax is just as easy as VO to learn.
The .Net Framework provides you with a rich source of *built-in classes*
Also it will save you having to re-write you application in 5 years to
.Net.
Post by Jamie
A number of us VOers are moving their applications over to C# because we
see
Post by Jamie
it coming.
Jamie
****
I haven't considered this, partially due to what I (perhaps mistakenly )
think is the relative newness of the platform, and partially due to my own
ignorance. I'm a little wary of jumping onto each new M$ wave lest I get
battered when the tide comes in.
I'm a bit disappointed to hear that (significant?) numbers of developers are
abandoning the VO ship, just when I'm thinking it may not be a bad time to
get on board.
It's good to hear all the perspectives though.
Jamie, are you moving on, because you think there are more things that C#
does better than things that VO does better? I would think there is some
significant cost in moving apps across. Why not just at least maintain
these with VO and then consider alternatives for new apps as necessary?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
One other thing. What are the relative costs of the 2 environments. I know
it's probably not a consideration for most on this forum, but in our case,
there isn't going to be **huge** amts of development projects. The low cost
of VO plus it's "support" of legacy clipper may be a factor also.
Ian
Jamie
2003-09-15 19:33:18 UTC
Permalink
BTW with Adavantage DBF access is really easy via .Net. I am currently
using it with the ADO.Net OleDb provider. However, they have just released
version 7.0 of their database server. It includes a .Net client. The Local
server and all clients are still free.

http://www.extendedsystems.com/ADS/News+-+Events/PressDetail.htm?newsID=20030908

Jamie
Post by Ginny Caughey
Ian,
I agree with Jamie that you should look at C# too. We have some new development
in C#, and also some major enhancement development to existing apps in VO, so
it's not true that all VO developers who work in C# are leaving VO. In my case I
think it's more accurate to say that I'm leaving C++. VO's support of Clipper
syntax is still a plus, although we are moving one Clipper app to C# at the
moment (and also completely redesigning it to take advantage of .Net
technology).
.Net is not a new platform these days - it's been out for 3 years now, and even
in beta it was more solid than VO is today. You'll spend $700 and up for Visual
Studio 2003 (depending on the version), but if you have the MSDN Universal
subscription like many of us already do for VO work, there's no extra cost. By
the time you figure in the price for VO 3rd party libs you'll want (if you don't
have them already) the costs are about the same.
One other thing to keep in mind is that you can use VO code from .Net apps, so
it's not necessarily an either/or choice. Since .Net doesn't do DBF access or
macro compilation as easily as VO, this will remain an attractive combination
for years to come allowing you to take advantage of the strengths of both
environments. And future versions of VO will probably make this even more
attractive by allowing you to build tiny VO apps that don't require a lot of
external DLLs to do the stuff that VO still does best.
--
Ginny
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by Jamie
At the risk of annoying people on the group again. Have you looked at C#
.Net? It is much easier than C/C++ to develop in since you don't need to
worry about memory management. The syntax is just as easy as VO to learn.
The .Net Framework provides you with a rich source of *built-in classes*
Also it will save you having to re-write you application in 5 years to
.Net.
Post by Jamie
A number of us VOers are moving their applications over to C# because we
see
Post by Jamie
it coming.
Jamie
****
I haven't considered this, partially due to what I (perhaps mistakenly )
think is the relative newness of the platform, and partially due to my own
ignorance. I'm a little wary of jumping onto each new M$ wave lest I get
battered when the tide comes in.
I'm a bit disappointed to hear that (significant?) numbers of developers are
abandoning the VO ship, just when I'm thinking it may not be a bad time to
get on board.
It's good to hear all the perspectives though.
Jamie, are you moving on, because you think there are more things that C#
does better than things that VO does better? I would think there is some
significant cost in moving apps across. Why not just at least maintain
these with VO and then consider alternatives for new apps as necessary?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
One other thing. What are the relative costs of the 2 environments. I know
it's probably not a consideration for most on this forum, but in our case,
there isn't going to be **huge** amts of development projects. The low cost
of VO plus it's "support" of legacy clipper may be a factor also.
Ian
TSDing
2003-09-16 10:53:54 UTC
Permalink
If you are considering VO or C++, I would say VO is very much closer to
Clipper. Probably you will need to do less with VO. There is something you
will have to accept, there is no direct conversion code to code. You will
need to redesign all your screens and flows. However you will most likely to
be able to salvage alot of your Clipper business logic and codes to be used
in VO.

Some of the people here are also doing C#, I have not tried that out yet. I
dont think I will be using C# although highly recomended by some of the
people here. VO may not be able to handle everything under the sun but VO is
still very effective when comes to my programming needs. I stay with VO for
all my old and new software development work. I work on varieties of systems
on Windows 32 platform, small to large systems with combinations of text
files to database such as DBF, MS-Access, MS-SQL, CA-Ingres and MYSQL.

One of my more complicated system in VO has over 80 users simultanously
remote and local network, with combination of database in CA-Ingres ( in
HPUX, unix ), MSQL ( Windows NT ), MS-Access and DBF which also involve ftp
text files from remote unix servers. All these are done with pure VO,
without any 3rd party tools. Of cos 3rd party tools will make your life
easier.

Regards
TSDing
Ian Henderson
2003-09-18 00:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Just out of curiousity, do you or anyone you know use an application
dictionary as an integral part of your dvpt. project.

Regards
IanH
Post by TSDing
If you are considering VO or C++, I would say VO is very much closer to
Clipper. Probably you will need to do less with VO. There is something you
will have to accept, there is no direct conversion code to code. You will
need to redesign all your screens and flows. However you will most likely to
be able to salvage alot of your Clipper business logic and codes to be used
in VO.
Some of the people here are also doing C#, I have not tried that out yet. I
dont think I will be using C# although highly recomended by some of the
people here. VO may not be able to handle everything under the sun but VO is
still very effective when comes to my programming needs. I stay with VO for
all my old and new software development work. I work on varieties of systems
on Windows 32 platform, small to large systems with combinations of text
files to database such as DBF, MS-Access, MS-SQL, CA-Ingres and MYSQL.
One of my more complicated system in VO has over 80 users simultanously
remote and local network, with combination of database in CA-Ingres ( in
HPUX, unix ), MSQL ( Windows NT ), MS-Access and DBF which also involve ftp
text files from remote unix servers. All these are done with pure VO,
without any 3rd party tools. Of cos 3rd party tools will make your life
easier.
Regards
TSDing
"Marshall Rhinehart" <mrhp@adelphia.net>
2003-09-15 21:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

Two thoughts...

1.) Forget C or VO, and buy a guitar. The title of this thread could
become a country music hit. Maybe Brian could hire you for a jingle for the
release of 3.0....just a thought. (I've been working way tooo long.)

2.) My quick read of your questions made me think you weren't looking for a
'career move', but you need to get a few apps out, and maybe some more after
that. The C# people make valid points, but if your footing is in Clipper,
sticking with alot of the VO stuff, out of the box, will get you pretty far,
pretty quick (those looking for precise language please excuse the four
words preceding the opening parenthesis <g> ). The built in classes, and
examples/samples that come with VO can put you on the right track, in a
number of different directions (email, ftp, etc.).

If you had said you were starting from scratch, and this was a full time
endeavour, and you wanted to produce a vertical market app, my response
would be to give a hard look at C#, and VO. Given limited time, and your
background, I'd weigh in on the side of VO.

But again....I'd be looking for that guitar... <g>.

Marshall
Post by Ian Henderson
Hello all
I've been away from dvpt. for awhile. Since the "good old" Clipper 5.2 days
I've done some windoze stuff but not much. Fooled around with Fivewin and
db2K (dBase) for a couple small apps.
Now that I'm contemplating moving over a larger in-house DOS app to 32 bit
windows, I've starrted lurking on the xBase newsgroups like this one. I
have a couple questions, Actually more than a couple :-)
1. Are there any learning resources for VO that can be recommended?
2. Where can I find sample classes or frameworks that will get me familiar
with "professional " application of the language and built-in classes?
(a) Fire up the old VO1.0c that I purchased eons again and play with it?
( I know this sounds crazy, but I've read somewhwere that the language
hasn't changed much) or (b) download the crippled 30-day ttrial ( I
personally feel that 30 days isn't that much time for an in-depth
evaluation. Even Borland gives 60 days on C++ builder)
4. For any old clipperheads who've done both, how would you compare VO vs
C++ insofar as: (a) Time to become reasonably competent
(b) Time to develop business apps.
I'm considering both options (VO and C++). I have no intentions of becoming
a full-time developer, since I mainly intend to do a few in-house upgrades
( I did the original stuff years go before moving onto other
responsibilitiies) and maybe a couple vertical apps in my spare time.
Hoping to get some perspecftive re the above.
Thanks in advance.
Ian
Gary Stark
2003-09-15 22:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Marshall,

"Marshall Rhinehart
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
Ian,
Two thoughts...
1.) Forget C or VO, and buy a guitar. The title of this thread could
become a country music hit. Maybe Brian could hire you for a jingle for the
release of 3.0....just a thought. (I've been working way tooo long.)
2.) My quick read of your questions made me think you weren't looking for a
'career move', but you need to get a few apps out, and maybe some more after
that. The C# people make valid points, but if your footing is in Clipper,
sticking with alot of the VO stuff, out of the box, will get you pretty far,
pretty quick (those looking for precise language please excuse the four
words preceding the opening parenthesis <g> ). The built in classes, and
examples/samples that come with VO can put you on the right track, in a
number of different directions (email, ftp, etc.).
If you had said you were starting from scratch, and this was a full time
endeavour, and you wanted to produce a vertical market app, my response
would be to give a hard look at C#, and VO. Given limited time, and your
background, I'd weigh in on the side of VO.
Good answer.
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
But again....I'd be looking for that guitar... <g>.
Will my '77 fretless Fender P-Bass do ?



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
"Marshall Rhinehart" <mrhp@adelphia.net>
2003-09-16 10:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
Will my '77 fretless Fender P-Bass do ?
I'd settle for 'fretless' VO. <g>.

Marshall
Gary Stark
2003-09-16 11:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Marshall

"Marshall Rhinehart
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
Will my '77 fretless Fender P-Bass do ?
I'd settle for 'fretless' VO. <g>.
I'll p(l)ay that one. :)


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Geoff Schaller
2003-09-16 12:25:29 UTC
Permalink
You're starting to make a habit of comprehensive and well written answers.
Stop it!

...or Ilias will have nothing to complain about.

<g>
"Marshall Rhinehart" <mrhp@adelphia.net>
2003-09-16 14:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
You're starting to make a habit of comprehensive and well written answers.
Stop it!
Not all residents of the big island agree.... Gary sometimes finds me a 'tad
confused'. <g> (He's not alone in his opinion, but I'm sticking with NG
members for this response. <g> )
Post by Geoff Schaller
...or Ilias will have nothing to complain about.
He's a bit like a car wreck....you wouldn't want your kids to see it, and
you know you shouldn't look....but we look none the less....
( the best we can hope is that there are no serious injuries )
...hmmmm....maybe the car wreck metaphor is better than the UnaIlias of
yesterday...that may have been over the top. My apologies to anyone
offended.

Marshall
Post by Geoff Schaller
<g>
Ian Henderson
2003-09-17 23:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
Ian,
Two thoughts...
1.) Forget C or VO, and buy a guitar. The title of this thread could
become a country music hit. Maybe Brian could hire you for a jingle for the
release of 3.0....just a thought. (I've been working way tooo long.)
****
Thanks, but I don't have a voice. But if you agree to sing I might consider
blowing some cobwebs out of that old saxophone I haven't picked up in, oh ..
nine or ten years <bg>
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
2.) My quick read of your questions made me think you weren't looking for a
'career move', but you need to get a few apps out, and maybe some more after
that. The C# people make valid points, but if your footing is in Clipper,
sticking with alot of the VO stuff, out of the box, will get you pretty far,
pretty quick (those looking for precise language please excuse the four
words preceding the opening parenthesis <g> ). The built in classes, and
examples/samples that come with VO can put you on the right track, in a
number of different directions (email, ftp, etc.).
****
Where are these samples/examples? I don't think the're on the trial d/load.
I vaguely remember version 1.x had some South sea winds example?!
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
If you had said you were starting from scratch, and this was a full time
endeavour, and you wanted to produce a vertical market app, my response
would be to give a hard look at C#, and VO. Given limited time, and your
background, I'd weigh in on the side of VO.
****
I hope to get some time this weekend to play with the trial. You guys seem
to be validating my initial (largely uninformed) asessment.
Post by "Marshall Rhinehart" <***@adelphia.net>
But again....I'd be looking for that guitar... <g>.
****
I can hear it now. Introducing Marshall Rhinehart and the Compiling Crew
sing their heart out with the smash hit:
"Thinking of VO again"

Seriously though, thanks for the insight.
IanH
"Marshall Rhinehart" <mrhp@adelphia.net>
2003-09-18 10:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Hello Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
Where are these samples/examples? I don't think the're on the trial d/load.
I vaguely remember version 1.x had some South sea winds example?!
Once VO is installed, a menu option is New Application. Your given six tabs
to choose from. One is samples. Quick count shows there are almost 40.
One is an example of a custom control. While that might seem advanced at
this point, having working code, that you can view, modify, work with, etc,
makes doing it (writing a custom control) a hundred times easier than from
scratch. Yesterday I needed something quick to view a jpg, and while there
are libraries, etc, to do such things, one to the samples is a viewer. In
fairly short order I clipped...or some here might say [snipped].... and had
the thing done, without much hard thought.

Granted, these aren't bullet proof pieces of code (the samples). But I
think the intent is to demonstrate...at that they do well. I would think,
if the 30 day trial is still available, that these samples would be
included. Someone may know that better than I.

HTH,
Marshall Rhinehart

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