Discussion:
Where is the event
(too old to reply)
Ian Henderson
2003-11-24 12:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Alert: Newbie question!!

Pg 38 of the programmers guide (under the heading smart windows dumb
controls), makes it clear that in VO, events are handled by windows.

I thought I understood correctly and this has seemed to be the case until I
tried a simple dialogwindow.



It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the window,
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the array
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears showing
his elements etc.



All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a selected
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the Esc key
to close any open box.

I use the keydown method, and none of this works. My guess is the listbox
is trapping the keydown ( contrary to what the documentation about events
being handled by windows )!!!



Is that the case? If so, how could I make the enter key do the same as the
doubleclick?

Finally where is a good place to get a good understanding of handling the VO
events.

Here is a portion of the code that doesn't work as I hoped:





METHOD KeyDown(oKeyEvent) CLASS aDispDialog

LOCAL nKeyCode AS SHORT

SUPER:Keydown( oKeyEvent )

nKeyCode := IIf(oKeyEvent = NULL_OBJECT, 0,
IIf(IsNil(oKeyEvent:ASCIIChar), ;

oKeyEvent:KeyCode, oKeyEvent:ASCIIChar))

IF ( nKeyCode = KEYENTER )

SELF:DoSelection()

ELSEIF ( nKeyCode = KEYESCAPE )

SELF:EndDialog()

ENDIF



METHOD DoSelection CLASS aDispDialog

LOCAL nSel := SELF :ArrayShowListBox:CurrentItemNo

LOCAL aArray := SELF:aArrayActual



IF IsArray( aArray[nSel] )

adisplay( aArray[ nSel] , SELF ) // Recursive call to self

ENDIF
Rens Renooij
2003-11-24 12:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ian,

Some keys like enter are handled by the control (windows) itself. If you
want to override this default windows behavior then you have to catch the
WM_GETDLGCODE event in the dispatch-method. If you do a google-search on
this group you'll find numbers of samples.

HTH
Rens
Ian Henderson
2003-11-24 15:42:58 UTC
Permalink
I'm getting confused here. Starting with a clean slate, I expected that (for
instance) a listbox click event would be handled by a listbox.



I read VO documentation a little more to find that lo and behold it's not
the listbox that handles the event but the parent window (datadialog ,
dialogwindow etc) that handles these. I found it strange that there was no
listbox:listboxclick() method but a window:listboxclick() method.

OK, so I buy the explanation that it's convenient to have the event handlers
as window methods for scope,visibility etc.



Now, you seem to be saying that while the listbox doesn't handle the
listboxClick() it handles a keypress???? And it's parent window can't
receive the event? I would have more expected a listboxClick() to be
handled by a listbox than a keypress!! This is weird.



Furthermore u seem to be saying that the listbox handles some keys and not
others??

How would I know which ones?



Checking the online help there is a window:keydown() method and a a
control:keydown() method.

Which has precedence and when?

Is there any documentation or anyway to make sense of any of this beside
trial and error?



I'm sure most of you have crossed this bridge before. I'm wondering how you
got across.



Thanks

IanH
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Ian,
Some keys like enter are handled by the control (windows) itself. If you
want to override this default windows behavior then you have to catch the
WM_GETDLGCODE event in the dispatch-method. If you do a google-search on
this group you'll find numbers of samples.
HTH
Rens
Rens Renooij
2003-11-24 16:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ian,

Getting confused..... Not nessecarry. Every control in windows is just a
window itself that has a window as his parent. Even your mainwindow has a
parent... the shellwindow. The next step is the way microsoft made the whole
thing event driven. So the window(control) that has the keyboardfocus get
the keyboard event when a key is pressed. VO does a great job catching
events and rerouting them to methods in the owning window. This you could do
in the dispatch methods yourself... Just see the SDK how it's handled.
Special keys like VK_ENTER are normaly not send to the dispatch by windows,
but can be asked to do so by catching the WM_GETDLGCODE event in your
dispatch if you answer this event with WantAllKeys constant. See your
windows sdk help. So the bottom line is every event can be catched by the
developer..... mouseclicks, keyboard, beginning of a drawing....

Where to start... see your win32sdk.hlp voor things that start with WM_ and
LB_ and LBN_

Have phun
Rens
Ed Richard
2003-11-24 16:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Henderson
I'm sure most of you have crossed this bridge before. I'm wondering how you
got across.
Ian,

I couldn't have done it without, the VO SDK, MSDN, Google and this NG

It's mostly Windows in this case, not VO that's in your way :

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/winui/winui/windowsuserinterface/windowing/dialogboxes/dialogboxprogrammingconsiderations.asp

As others have said, if you just want some code to solve your problem do a
search on Google and you'll find the Dispatch overrides that handle this.

...DO CASE
CASE oEvent:Message==WM_GETDLGCODE
IF oEvent:wParam==VK_RETURN
......
END IF
END CASE

Hth,
Ed
Malcolm Gray
2003-11-24 16:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Henderson
I'm getting confused here. Starting with a clean slate, I
expected that (for instance) a listbox click event would be
handled by a listbox.
The list box gets mousebutton down and then the windows
control notifies its parent.

Windows is built roughtly on the model of dumb controls
that only worry about being a control of that type with
inteligent dialogs that react to what the user does with the control.
Post by Ian Henderson
OK, so I buy the explanation that it's convenient to have the
event handlers as window methods for scope,visibility etc.
It matches the choices MS made.
Post by Ian Henderson
Now, you seem to be saying that while the listbox doesn't
handle the listboxClick() it handles a keypress???? And it's
parent window can't receive the event? I would have more
expected a listboxClick() to be handled by a listbox than a
keypress!! This is weird.
Welcome to the world of windows.
Post by Ian Henderson
Furthermore u seem to be saying that the listbox handles some
keys and not others??
How would I know which ones?
Windows asks the control which keys it is interested.
Post by Ian Henderson
Checking the online help there is a window:keydown() method
and a a control:keydown() method.
Which has precedence and when?
If focus is on the control the control gets it, if focus is on the
window the window gets it. (note that as far as windows is concerned
controls are windows)

I think you are expecting VO help to contain full details
of every detail of the microsoft SDK. As far as I know
no language does that, other than by reprinting the MS manuals.
Ian Henderson
2003-11-24 19:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Malcolm

Thanks for the insight.
It's making more sense to me now, though I'm seeing there's alot more that I
need to learn than I thought.

I noticed you said: "> .... window the window gets it. (note that as far as
windows is concerned
controls are windows)"
that's what i thought, that controls were just subclassed windows. But
looking at the VO class hierarchy doesn't give me that impression.

You suggest i consider the microsoft SDK. Do you suggest looking at the
win32sdk.hlp included on the VO2.6 CD? ( I hope not)!

Thnx
IanH
Post by Ian Henderson
I'm getting confused here. Starting with a clean slate, I
expected that (for instance) a listbox click event would be
handled by a listbox.
The list box gets mousebutton down and then the windows
control notifies its parent.
Windows is built roughtly on the model of dumb controls
that only worry about being a control of that type with
inteligent dialogs that react to what the user does with the control.
Post by Ian Henderson
OK, so I buy the explanation that it's convenient to have the
event handlers as window methods for scope,visibility etc.
It matches the choices MS made.
Post by Ian Henderson
Now, you seem to be saying that while the listbox doesn't
handle the listboxClick() it handles a keypress???? And it's
parent window can't receive the event? I would have more
expected a listboxClick() to be handled by a listbox than a
keypress!! This is weird.
Welcome to the world of windows.
Post by Ian Henderson
Furthermore u seem to be saying that the listbox handles some
keys and not others??
How would I know which ones?
Windows asks the control which keys it is interested.
Post by Ian Henderson
Checking the online help there is a window:keydown() method
and a a control:keydown() method.
Which has precedence and when?
If focus is on the control the control gets it, if focus is on the
window the window gets it. (note that as far as windows is concerned
controls are windows)
I think you are expecting VO help to contain full details
of every detail of the microsoft SDK. As far as I know
no language does that, other than by reprinting the MS manuals.
Malcolm Gray
2003-11-24 21:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Henderson
I noticed you said: "> .... window the window gets it. (note that as
far as windows is concerned
controls are windows)"
that's what i thought, that controls were just subclassed windows.
But looking at the VO class hierarchy doesn't give me that impression.
VOs class highrarchy comes from its VO 1 commonview roots (a multi platform
C GUI library that was then extended in VO tying it to windows).
Post by Ian Henderson
You suggest i consider the microsoft SDK. Do you suggest looking at
the win32sdk.hlp included on the VO2.6 CD? ( I hope not)!
I have never used that help file, at work I use an MSDN subscription,
at home I used the MSDN web site.
Mathias Håkansson
2003-11-25 08:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Henderson
You suggest i consider the microsoft SDK. Do you suggest looking at the
win32sdk.hlp included on the VO2.6 CD? ( I hope not)!
Actually it (or MSDN as Malcolm suggests) is the key to understanding how to
interpret the messages that windows sends to a window (or control). You can
for instance search for WM_GETDLGCODE and see what that message is for and
how to react on it.

MSDN is a subscription that makes sure that you always got the latest
version of the windows API reference. It also covers a lot more areas than
the win32sdk help file, like .net and pocket pc.

Mathias
Gary Stark
2003-11-25 08:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Mathias,
Post by Mathias HÃ¥kansson
MSDN is a subscription that makes sure that you always got the latest
version of the windows API reference. It also covers a lot more areas than
the win32sdk help file, like .net and pocket pc.
Most of it is also available online, and for free.

http://msdn.microsoft.com


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-25 09:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

Take one step backward and read Charles Petzold, "Progamming Windows". You
really need to start here first and then launch into the SDK. Controls
generate events, not windows, but of course under the hood, a control is
just a special kind of window. But some controls "swallow" certain events
and some are passed up to the owner (window) for processing. There, in the
dispatch, VO turns these events into event handlers which it calls
automatically for you.

Geoff
Malcolm Gray
2003-11-24 12:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Henderson
I use the keydown method, and none of this works. My guess is
the listbox is trapping the keydown ( contrary to what the
documentation about events being handled by windows )!!!
I think the default listbox event handler is replying
to WM_GETDLGCODE with a code that means
"don't bother telling me about enter"
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/winui/winui/windowsuserinterface/windowing/dialogboxes/dialogboxreference/dialogboxmessages/wm_getdlgcode.asp

Or hook a different message.
Post by Ian Henderson
Finally where is a good place to get a good understanding of
handling the VO events.
To understand the details of VO events I would start with decent
docs of the windows events (http://msdn.microsoft.com)
and the VO SDK to see how they are translated.
unknown
2003-11-24 17:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the window,
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the array
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears showing
his elements etc.
All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a selected
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the Esc key
to close any open box.
In this concrete case you can use default windows processing for enter and
escape keys:

method dispatch(o) class YourDialogBox
local k as dword
if o:umsg=wm_command
k := LoWord(o:wParam)
if k = idok
// enter key pressed
elseif k = idcancel
// escape key pressed
endif
endif
return super:dispatch(o)

Igor
Ian Henderson
2003-11-24 18:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Igor, Malcolm and others, thanks very much for this invaluable help. I
knew I was up against the MSwindows learning curve as well as the VO
environment itself. I just didn't think I'd encounter it so quickly for
such a simple task.

My first attempt at Win stuff a couple years ago was more successful using
Clipper+FIvewin (Bad word around here?!). Likey because the author hid a
lot of the windows workings from the programmer and surfaced many things as
user-definable clipper code blocks. In retrospect, I suppose it could make
you more "productive" immediately, but it can also prevent you from knowing
how much you don't know. !!
Actually now I think the VO way makes more sense.

The eg. code you provided works perfectly. Thx much.
I need to spend some more time reading on how VO handles events.
Where does one find this info on the dispatch method for the dialogBox? I
didn't find it in online help, although I saw a short blurb on
control:dispatch

Thanks again
Post by unknown
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the window,
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the array
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears showing
his elements etc.
All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a selected
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the Esc
key
Post by Ian Henderson
to close any open box.
In this concrete case you can use default windows processing for enter and
method dispatch(o) class YourDialogBox
local k as dword
if o:umsg=wm_command
k := LoWord(o:wParam)
if k = idok
// enter key pressed
elseif k = idcancel
// escape key pressed
endif
endif
return super:dispatch(o)
Igor
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-24 19:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

You could always move to a language, that does it the other way.

Graham
Post by Ian Henderson
Igor, Malcolm and others, thanks very much for this invaluable help. I
knew I was up against the MSwindows learning curve as well as the VO
environment itself. I just didn't think I'd encounter it so quickly for
such a simple task.
My first attempt at Win stuff a couple years ago was more successful using
Clipper+FIvewin (Bad word around here?!). Likey because the author hid a
lot of the windows workings from the programmer and surfaced many things as
user-definable clipper code blocks. In retrospect, I suppose it could make
you more "productive" immediately, but it can also prevent you from knowing
how much you don't know. !!
Actually now I think the VO way makes more sense.
The eg. code you provided works perfectly. Thx much.
I need to spend some more time reading on how VO handles events.
Where does one find this info on the dispatch method for the dialogBox? I
didn't find it in online help, although I saw a short blurb on
control:dispatch
Thanks again
Post by unknown
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the
window,
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the
array
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears
showing
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
his elements etc.
All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a selected
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the Esc
key
Post by Ian Henderson
to close any open box.
In this concrete case you can use default windows processing for enter and
method dispatch(o) class YourDialogBox
local k as dword
if o:umsg=wm_command
k := LoWord(o:wParam)
if k = idok
// enter key pressed
elseif k = idcancel
// escape key pressed
endif
endif
return super:dispatch(o)
Igor
Ian Henderson
2003-11-24 20:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Graham

Such as?
From the threads I'm seeing lately, some people are speaking of C#
migration. I don't know if that's what you mean.
Having just dived into VO about a month ago I don't think it would make
sense to change so soon.
I would imagine the challenges I encounter in coming to grips with this
environment ( recently decided to resume programming - previous experience
mostly Dos) would be fully useful for whatever new stuff comes around.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I vaguely remember reading somewhere that
the new MS Os and .Net will depart from using win32 api ??
Does that mean that all these dispatch methods, event characteristics etc
that I'm just beginning to learn will all become irrelevant in short order?

regards
IanH
Post by Graham McKechnie
Ian,
You could always move to a language, that does it the other way.
Graham
Post by Ian Henderson
Igor, Malcolm and others, thanks very much for this invaluable help. I
knew I was up against the MSwindows learning curve as well as the VO
environment itself. I just didn't think I'd encounter it so quickly for
such a simple task.
My first attempt at Win stuff a couple years ago was more successful
using
Post by Ian Henderson
Clipper+FIvewin (Bad word around here?!). Likey because the author hid a
lot of the windows workings from the programmer and surfaced many things
as
Post by Ian Henderson
user-definable clipper code blocks. In retrospect, I suppose it could
make
Post by Ian Henderson
you more "productive" immediately, but it can also prevent you from
knowing
Post by Ian Henderson
how much you don't know. !!
Actually now I think the VO way makes more sense.
The eg. code you provided works perfectly. Thx much.
I need to spend some more time reading on how VO handles events.
Where does one find this info on the dispatch method for the dialogBox?
I
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
didn't find it in online help, although I saw a short blurb on
control:dispatch
Thanks again
Post by unknown
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the
window,
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the
array
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears
showing
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
his elements etc.
All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a
selected
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the
Esc
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
key
Post by Ian Henderson
to close any open box.
In this concrete case you can use default windows processing for enter
and
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
method dispatch(o) class YourDialogBox
local k as dword
if o:umsg=wm_command
k := LoWord(o:wParam)
if k = idok
// enter key pressed
elseif k = idcancel
// escape key pressed
endif
endif
return super:dispatch(o)
Igor
Jamie
2003-11-24 21:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham McKechnie
Graham
Such as?
From the threads I'm seeing lately, some people are speaking of C#
migration. I don't know if that's what you mean.
Having just dived into VO about a month ago I don't think it would make
sense to change so soon.
Actually this is the perfect time to do it. Why spend all the time learning
a new language, IDE, Framework which is already obsolete. You only have a
month invested, why waste more time on it, learning VO and than eventually
having to convert it. If you are taking the time to learn, learn something
that will take you into the future, as well as insure you job security.
Post by Graham McKechnie
I would imagine the challenges I encounter in coming to grips with this
environment ( recently decided to resume programming - previous experience
mostly Dos) would be fully useful for whatever new stuff comes around.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I vaguely remember reading somewhere that
the new MS Os and .Net will depart from using win32 api ??
Does that mean that all these dispatch methods, event characteristics etc
that I'm just beginning to learn will all become irrelevant in short order?
Exactly. It is no secret that Microsoft wants all future development to be
through .Net. In the next release of Windows the .Net Framework will
basically become the API and will be bolted right to OS. Not to say that
you can't access Win32 API's any more. But I think this will be the
exception, not the rule.

Jamie
Gary Stark
2003-11-24 21:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Ian
Post by Graham McKechnie
Graham
Such as?
From the threads I'm seeing lately, some people are speaking of C#
migration. I don't know if that's what you mean.
It is.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Having just dived into VO about a month ago I don't think it would make
sense to change so soon.
It depends upon what you're doing. Either course may be appropriate; you need to
make that decision based upon what you consider to be the relevant facts for
your product and market.
Post by Graham McKechnie
I would imagine the challenges I encounter in coming to grips with this
environment ( recently decided to resume programming - previous experience
mostly Dos) would be fully useful for whatever new stuff comes around.
Yep.

And if you're competent in VO, the learning curve for C# should be less than a
week to bring you to a level where you will feel comfortable.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I vaguely remember reading somewhere that
the new MS Os and .Net will depart from using win32 api ??
No. It's just buried more deeply.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Does that mean that all these dispatch methods, event characteristics etc
that I'm just beginning to learn will all become irrelevant in short order?
Not at all.


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Jamie
2003-11-24 21:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Stark
And if you're competent in VO, the learning curve for C# should be less than a
week to bring you to a level where you will feel comfortable.
Learning a language in .Net is trivial. It's the Framework that takes time.

Jamie
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-24 21:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

Most GUI systems other than VO's have the controls respond to events rather
than the form. (That's why CA coined the phrase "smart windows, dumb
controls" or something like that since VO is a bit odd that way.) The .Net
Windows.Forms GUI classes also have the controls react to events rather than
the form, but this isn't unique to .Net. I've written apps both ways and
find that handling events at the control level generally results in cleaner
code (as well as more control), but that's just my preference.

You would still be able to run traditional Win32 apps on Microsoft's
next-generation OSs, but security could be an issue with some administrators
since Win32 apps require full trust.

As to whether the challenges you encounter with VO will help you later with
.Net, I guess that depends on the particular challenges. ;-) I wouldn't
recommend learning VO as a way to learn .Net if that's what you mean.
--
Ginny
Post by Graham McKechnie
Graham
Such as?
From the threads I'm seeing lately, some people are speaking of C#
migration. I don't know if that's what you mean.
Having just dived into VO about a month ago I don't think it would make
sense to change so soon.
I would imagine the challenges I encounter in coming to grips with this
environment ( recently decided to resume programming - previous experience
mostly Dos) would be fully useful for whatever new stuff comes around.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I vaguely remember reading somewhere that
the new MS Os and .Net will depart from using win32 api ??
Does that mean that all these dispatch methods, event characteristics etc
that I'm just beginning to learn will all become irrelevant in short order?
regards
IanH
Post by Graham McKechnie
Ian,
You could always move to a language, that does it the other way.
Graham
Post by Ian Henderson
Igor, Malcolm and others, thanks very much for this invaluable help.
I
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
knew I was up against the MSwindows learning curve as well as the VO
environment itself. I just didn't think I'd encounter it so quickly for
such a simple task.
My first attempt at Win stuff a couple years ago was more successful
using
Post by Ian Henderson
Clipper+FIvewin (Bad word around here?!). Likey because the author
hid
Post by Graham McKechnie
a
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
lot of the windows workings from the programmer and surfaced many things
as
Post by Ian Henderson
user-definable clipper code blocks. In retrospect, I suppose it could
make
Post by Ian Henderson
you more "productive" immediately, but it can also prevent you from
knowing
Post by Ian Henderson
how much you don't know. !!
Actually now I think the VO way makes more sense.
The eg. code you provided works perfectly. Thx much.
I need to spend some more time reading on how VO handles events.
Where does one find this info on the dispatch method for the dialogBox?
I
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
didn't find it in online help, although I saw a short blurb on
control:dispatch
Thanks again
Post by unknown
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the
window,
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the
array
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears
showing
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
his elements etc.
All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a
selected
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the
Esc
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
key
Post by Ian Henderson
to close any open box.
In this concrete case you can use default windows processing for enter
and
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
method dispatch(o) class YourDialogBox
local k as dword
if o:umsg=wm_command
k := LoWord(o:wParam)
if k = idok
// enter key pressed
elseif k = idcancel
// escape key pressed
endif
endif
return super:dispatch(o)
Igor
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-25 00:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
Such as
Well Jamie, Gary and Ginny have beaten me to it.

The VO way re events does appear twisted, it works, but it really does mean
more work for you. You obviously like the event model the opposite way - no
smart windows, dumb controls for you, so I'm sure you would find it easier
with C#. Gary is being a touch overly optimistic about learning it in a
week, but you have to remember that Gary is a genius, he even can do VB. If
Spence is fumbling around, (and he's a god according to some up here) then I
guess it may take more than a week. But I agree with Gary, C# is just a
natural for a VO programmer.

Jamie is right, its the Framework that will take the time, it is kind of
large, but you don't have to learn it all at once to be writing code
quickly. Plenty of help available on the MS forums, none of the crap you get
here, and from what he has said Uncle Phil wont even appear there for at
least a couple of years. Obviously not as much entertainment, so you will
still want to drop in here often. So its all looking rosy.

You don't have any legacy VO code to worry about, so I certainly wouldn't
waste even one more day on VO. I really think if you asked the same question
directly to Grafx, they would have to give you the same answer if they were
being honest.

Take into consideration, all the points, that Jamie, Gary and Ginny have
made. If they all make sense, go buy MS Visual Studio today. You just wont
get a Christmas card from Uncle Phil this year.

Graham
Post by Ian Henderson
Graham
Such as?
From the threads I'm seeing lately, some people are speaking of C#
migration. I don't know if that's what you mean.
Having just dived into VO about a month ago I don't think it would make
sense to change so soon.
I would imagine the challenges I encounter in coming to grips with this
environment ( recently decided to resume programming - previous experience
mostly Dos) would be fully useful for whatever new stuff comes around.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I vaguely remember reading somewhere that
the new MS Os and .Net will depart from using win32 api ??
Does that mean that all these dispatch methods, event characteristics etc
that I'm just beginning to learn will all become irrelevant in short order?
regards
IanH
Post by Graham McKechnie
Ian,
You could always move to a language, that does it the other way.
Graham
Post by Ian Henderson
Igor, Malcolm and others, thanks very much for this invaluable help.
I
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
knew I was up against the MSwindows learning curve as well as the VO
environment itself. I just didn't think I'd encounter it so quickly for
such a simple task.
My first attempt at Win stuff a couple years ago was more successful
using
Post by Ian Henderson
Clipper+FIvewin (Bad word around here?!). Likey because the author
hid
Post by Ian Henderson
a
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
lot of the windows workings from the programmer and surfaced many things
as
Post by Ian Henderson
user-definable clipper code blocks. In retrospect, I suppose it could
make
Post by Ian Henderson
you more "productive" immediately, but it can also prevent you from
knowing
Post by Ian Henderson
how much you don't know. !!
Actually now I think the VO way makes more sense.
The eg. code you provided works perfectly. Thx much.
I need to spend some more time reading on how VO handles events.
Where does one find this info on the dispatch method for the dialogBox?
I
Post by Graham McKechnie
Post by Ian Henderson
didn't find it in online help, although I saw a short blurb on
control:dispatch
Thanks again
Post by unknown
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
It's a simple dialogbox with one control, a listbox that fills the
window,
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
and displays the contents of an array. If one of the elements of the
array
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
is itself an array, I doubleclick on that and a new dialog appears
showing
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
his elements etc.
All this works fine, but now I want to press the enter key on a
selected
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
Post by Ian Henderson
element and have the same effect as a double click, also I wane the
Esc
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
key
Post by Ian Henderson
to close any open box.
In this concrete case you can use default windows processing for enter
and
Post by Ian Henderson
Post by unknown
method dispatch(o) class YourDialogBox
local k as dword
if o:umsg=wm_command
k := LoWord(o:wParam)
if k = idok
// enter key pressed
elseif k = idcancel
// escape key pressed
endif
endif
return super:dispatch(o)
Igor
Gary Stark
2003-11-25 01:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Grum,
Post by Graham McKechnie
with C#. Gary is being a touch overly optimistic about learning it in a
No, not really. I was talking about coming from a base of solid VO competency
for this. If you have that underlying VO knowledge, then C# is a doddle. If
not, then you will still have that far steeper learning curve.
Post by Graham McKechnie
week, but you have to remember that Gary is a genius,
That much is true. :)
Post by Graham McKechnie
he even can do VB. If
Spence is fumbling around, (and he's a god according to some up here) then I
Nah .... Rick's spent far too long in the land of Delphi. :)
Post by Graham McKechnie
Jamie is right, its the Framework that will take the time, it is kind of
Yep.
Post by Graham McKechnie
large, but you don't have to learn it all at once to be writing code
quickly. Plenty of help available on the MS forums, none of the crap you get
here, and from what he has said Uncle Phil wont even appear there for at
least a couple of years.
Some good points indeed!


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-25 01:25:21 UTC
Permalink
snip[ and from what he has said Uncle Phil wont even appear there for at
least a couple of years. ]

Graham I monitor the Microsoft .DOTNET groups daily..... See the occassion
post from Ginny.
Just an observer and sometimes it is interesting to see the real problems
developers are having.

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-25 03:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Oh shit, thats blown it - promise Phil - just monitor.
Post by Phil McGuinness
Just an observer and sometimes it is interesting to see the real problems
developers are having.
yeh agreed, you do see the VBers struggle for a while, until they jump to
C#.

Graham
Post by Phil McGuinness
snip[ and from what he has said Uncle Phil wont even appear there for at
least a couple of years. ]
Graham I monitor the Microsoft .DOTNET groups daily..... See the occassion
post from Ginny.
Just an observer and sometimes it is interesting to see the real problems
developers are having.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-25 03:43:57 UTC
Permalink
snip[ Oh shit, thats blown it - promise Phil - just monitor. ]

Yeah there is enough shit going on there already... <G>
To say it is all smooth sailing is a bit over the top..

snip[ yeh agreed, you do see the VBers struggle for a while, until they jump
to C#.]

yeh..... then some jumped from a BRIDGE <G>

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
--------
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-25 09:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil McGuinness
Just an observer and sometimes it is interesting to see the real problems
developers are having.
Ok... I think I understand... you go to the Microsoft sites to see "real"
developer problems.

Interesting prognosis.... <g>
Rens Renooij
2003-11-25 16:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ian,

Also our IT department is switching to Visual Studio (C#, .Net etc) cause
.Net development of VO takes to long. The next version of VO (2.7) is again
just a new big bugfix you have to pay for and maybe version 3.0 wil be .Net
in 2005,2006 or so. I personaly think that VO has a great learning curve in
object orientated programming, but also staying or starting with VO at this
moment is like missing the boat. Visual Studio on the other hand is comming
with C++ and C# and ASP.Net and J# (even VB.Net) and generates output for
all current OS's without tricks and fixes. Also all samples from MSDN fit
directly without translating to another language. Visual Studio with c#
looks and feels like VO, but got a lot more of developers building/testing
it, can do anything VO does and more and easier. So go the easy way.....

HTH
Rens
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-26 10:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Rens,

I don't think I agree with much of your assessment.

There is very little need for .net out there just yet that cannot be handled
the way Win32 handles it now. Having said that, we are already looking at
Share Point interfaces in .net that will be running on the server (.net of
course). But the old technology (old...???) will be around for a long time.
A VO shop is a VO shop - there is very little need to change right now and a
migration over time makes much more sense. I am sure that Win32 will
disappear one day, much in the same way that DOS did... but how long did
that take?????

...and don't you still see DOS around? <g>

Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Ian,
Also our IT department is switching to Visual Studio (C#, .Net etc) cause
.Net development of VO takes to long. The next version of VO (2.7) is again
just a new big bugfix you have to pay for and maybe version 3.0 wil be .Net
in 2005,2006 or so. I personaly think that VO has a great learning curve in
object orientated programming, but also staying or starting with VO at this
moment is like missing the boat. Visual Studio on the other hand is comming
with C++ and C# and ASP.Net and J# (even VB.Net) and generates output for
all current OS's without tricks and fixes. Also all samples from MSDN fit
directly without translating to another language. Visual Studio with c#
looks and feels like VO, but got a lot more of developers building/testing
it, can do anything VO does and more and easier. So go the easy way.....
HTH
Rens
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-26 10:29:44 UTC
Permalink
snip[ much in the same way that DOS did... ]

What DOS disappeared........ damn..

Sorry I just checked its still there. <BG>

snip[ but how long did that take????? ]

Well lets see it turned up in about 1980 and should probably be really
disappearing about July 2008 when W2k and XP are not longer officially
supported.. however there is usually another 2 years tacked onto this so...
2010 should wrap it up.

So about 30 years........ at least.

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
--------------
Post by Geoff Schaller
Rens,
migration over time makes much more sense. I am sure that Win32 will
disappear one day, much in the same way that DOS did... but how long did
that take?????
...and don't you still see DOS around? <g>
Geoff
Rens Renooij
2003-11-26 11:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,

I Know you're on the VO-Paylist <g>
But start learning VO now and migrate over time? PLEASE GET REAL man.
There is NO reason why anybody should learn VO now. The tool is obsolete
and stays obsolete when they only fix bugs and develop things that are
allready standard for years in other languages. So if you don't have any VO
applications to maintain.......
If you on the other hand think your tool is up to date then just one
specialy for you: Unicode support, C++ implemented it several versions and
years ago, The next version of VO AGAIN does NOT have it.

Have a nice day and dream<g>,
Rens
Ian Henderson
2003-11-27 00:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Lots of food for thought, and valuable advice. Thx much.

One thing though, how could you say that VO is already obsolete? What's out
there that's so "late and great" that VO won't do ?



I can understand the compelling reasons insofar as that's where the crowd
and support is. But is the new technology really that much superior and
productive?



Just out of curiosity I visited one of the c# help sites:
http://www.csharphelp.com/archives3/archive526.html

Conceptually, the whole .net framework sounds really cool, and .

I know you couldn't compare based on a superficial glance but .



One of the topics i saw on that site was:

"Designing A Winform In C# And Linking It To A SQL Server Database"

No big deal for VO but, for this environment you seem to have to do so much.



Form designers, table designers etc are there as you'd expect, then I see
huge amounts of (subjectively) ugly looking code!! A portion of which is
reproduced at the end of this post? Sorry for the length!!



So VO migrators, is it typical that it requires considerably more effort to
code in C# than with the VO language? And if so, are the new gadgets etc.
worth this disadvantage??



Regards

IanH





Hand codind required after using the IDE to design a simple form to connect
to a database???


============================================================================
===========================

" ... Next create new variables for storing the values retrieved from the
textboxes and combo boxes keyed in by the user while filling out the form.
For example we declare the following:



private string Fname,Lname,Lang,Country,State,Timezone,



Bmonth,Byear,Occup;



private char Gender;



private int Zipcode,Bday;



Then we retrieve all that is keyed in by the user by the component events.
For every component i.e. text boxes, combo boxes and radio boxes that we
created, write the following code:



Next create new variables for storing the values retrieved from the
textboxes

and combo boxes keyed in by the user while filling out the form. For
example

we declare the following:



private string Fname,Lname,Lang,Country,State,Timezone,

Bmonth,Byear,Occup;

private char Gender;

private int Zipcode,Bday;



Then we retrieve all that is keyed in by the user by the component events.
For

every component i.e. text boxes, combo boxes and radio boxes that we
created,

write the following code:



private void textBox1_TextChanged(object sender, System.EventArgs e)

{

this.Fname=this.textBox1.Text.ToString();

}



private void comboBox1_SelectedIndexChanged(object sender, System.EventArgs
e)

{

this.Lang=this.comboBox1.SelectedItem.ToString();

}



private void radioButton1_CheckedChanged(object sender, System.EventArgs e)

{

this.Gender='M';

}



Now add the following code to make the buttons functional in their click
event

code:



private void button1_Click(object sender, System.EventArgs e)



{ //LIST ALL REGISTERIES BUTTON

Form2 f2=new Form2();

f2.ShowDialog();

}

private void button2_Click(object sender, System.EventArgs e)

{ //CANCEL BUTTON

this.Dispose();

}



private void button3_Click(object sender, System.EventArgs e)

{ //REGISTER NOW BUTTON



if(this.textBox1.Text==""||this.textBox2.Text=="")

MessageBox.Show("Please enter your name");

else

{this.sqlConnection1.Open();



string insert="INSERT INTO REGISTER(FNAME, LNAME, LANG, COUNTRY, STATE,

ZIPCODE, TIMEZONE, GENDER, BDAY, BMONTH, BYEAR, OCCUPATION) VALUES ('"+

this.Fname +"','"+ this.Lname +"','"+ this.Lang +"','"+ this.Country +"','"+

this.State +"','"+ this.Zipcode +"','"+ this.Timezone +"','"+ this.Gender

+"','"+ this.Bday +"','"+ this.Bmonth +"','"+ this.Byear +"','"+ this.Occup

+"')";



..... " etc etc
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Geoff,
I Know you're on the VO-Paylist <g>
But start learning VO now and migrate over time? PLEASE GET REAL man.
There is NO reason why anybody should learn VO now. The tool is obsolete
and stays obsolete when they only fix bugs and develop things that are
allready standard for years in other languages. So if you don't have any VO
applications to maintain.......
If you on the other hand think your tool is up to date then just one
specialy for you: Unicode support, C++ implemented it several versions and
years ago, The next version of VO AGAIN does NOT have it.
Have a nice day and dream<g>,
Rens
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-27 05:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

As you were away for so long, I thought you had taken off for the MS shop
and decided not to come back<g>. Sorry about the <g>'s, but these days, you
really do have to be careful up here.

Of course one should be able to answer a fellow VOer's reasonable questions
without being belted by some of the guys here, but as you can see while you
were away at the MS shop, a few people got a touch excited.
Post by Ian Henderson
One thing though, how could you say that VO is already obsolete? What's out
there that's so "late and great" that VO won't do ?
Its not necessarily obsolete, it all depends on what you want to do. But I
certainly wouldn't call it modern. Its design is over 10 years old, which is
pretty ancient say compared to C# and as it stands (2.7), can't do stuff
that I require, therefore I had to switch, no choice. I also don't see that
changing any time soon (next 2years).

I also and more importantly (my opinion) don't see a future for the product,
as I've stated here previously, as the revenues that will be generated by
the 2.7 upgrade or new sales (probably non existant) will not generate
enough income to fund any further development. Therefore no 3.0, so that
alone should be enough to convince you. I don't make these claims to upset
people here, they are based on previous experience. I was in the software
distribution business for a bloody long time, I know what costs are involved
and the numbers here just don't add up.

I could go on Ian, but what ever I say here will get me howled down by some
of the dreamers here, but Ian I would suggest that they just don't have a
bloody clue as to what is really required.
Post by Ian Henderson
"Designing A Winform In C# And Linking It To A SQL Server Database"
I think someone else said it "Using C# doesn't necessarily mean that one
writes better code". That in my opinion is not a great example, overly
complex.

Try the following http://www.gotdotnet.com/ that will lead you to a heap of
places where you can do your research. If you want to read about what is
coming from MS then try this
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/productinfo/roadmap.aspx

Regards
Graham
Post by Ian Henderson
Lots of food for thought, and valuable advice. Thx much.
One thing though, how could you say that VO is already obsolete? What's out
there that's so "late and great" that VO won't do ?
I can understand the compelling reasons insofar as that's where the crowd
and support is. But is the new technology really that much superior and
productive?
http://www.csharphelp.com/archives3/archive526.html
Conceptually, the whole .net framework sounds really cool, and .
I know you couldn't compare based on a superficial glance but .
"Designing A Winform In C# And Linking It To A SQL Server Database"
No big deal for VO but, for this environment you seem to have to do so much.
Form designers, table designers etc are there as you'd expect, then I see
huge amounts of (subjectively) ugly looking code!! A portion of which is
reproduced at the end of this post? Sorry for the length!!
So VO migrators, is it typical that it requires considerably more effort to
code in C# than with the VO language? And if so, are the new gadgets etc.
worth this disadvantage??
Regards
IanH
Hand codind required after using the IDE to design a simple form to connect
to a database???
============================================================================
Post by Ian Henderson
===========================
" ... Next create new variables for storing the values retrieved from the
textboxes and combo boxes keyed in by the user while filling out the form.
private string Fname,Lname,Lang,Country,State,Timezone,
Bmonth,Byear,Occup;
private char Gender;
private int Zipcode,Bday;
Then we retrieve all that is keyed in by the user by the component events.
For every component i.e. text boxes, combo boxes and radio boxes that we
Next create new variables for storing the values retrieved from the
textboxes
and combo boxes keyed in by the user while filling out the form. For
example
private string Fname,Lname,Lang,Country,State,Timezone,
Bmonth,Byear,Occup;
private char Gender;
private int Zipcode,Bday;
Then we retrieve all that is keyed in by the user by the component events.
For
every component i.e. text boxes, combo boxes and radio boxes that we
created,
private void textBox1_TextChanged(object sender, System.EventArgs e)
{
this.Fname=this.textBox1.Text.ToString();
}
private void comboBox1_SelectedIndexChanged(object sender,
System.EventArgs
Post by Ian Henderson
e)
{
this.Lang=this.comboBox1.SelectedItem.ToString();
}
private void radioButton1_CheckedChanged(object sender, System.EventArgs e)
{
this.Gender='M';
}
Now add the following code to make the buttons functional in their click
event
private void button1_Click(object sender, System.EventArgs e)
{ //LIST ALL REGISTERIES BUTTON
Form2 f2=new Form2();
f2.ShowDialog();
}
private void button2_Click(object sender, System.EventArgs e)
{ //CANCEL BUTTON
this.Dispose();
}
private void button3_Click(object sender, System.EventArgs e)
{ //REGISTER NOW BUTTON
if(this.textBox1.Text==""||this.textBox2.Text=="")
MessageBox.Show("Please enter your name");
else
{this.sqlConnection1.Open();
string insert="INSERT INTO REGISTER(FNAME, LNAME, LANG, COUNTRY, STATE,
ZIPCODE, TIMEZONE, GENDER, BDAY, BMONTH, BYEAR, OCCUPATION) VALUES ('"+
this.Fname +"','"+ this.Lname +"','"+ this.Lang +"','"+ this.Country +"','"+
this.State +"','"+ this.Zipcode +"','"+ this.Timezone +"','"+ this.Gender
+"','"+ this.Bday +"','"+ this.Bmonth +"','"+ this.Byear +"','"+ this.Occup
+"')";
..... " etc etc
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Geoff,
I Know you're on the VO-Paylist <g>
But start learning VO now and migrate over time? PLEASE GET REAL man.
There is NO reason why anybody should learn VO now. The tool is obsolete
and stays obsolete when they only fix bugs and develop things that are
allready standard for years in other languages. So if you don't have any
VO
Post by Rens Renooij
applications to maintain.......
If you on the other hand think your tool is up to date then just one
specialy for you: Unicode support, C++ implemented it several versions and
years ago, The next version of VO AGAIN does NOT have it.
Have a nice day and dream<g>,
Rens
Rens Renooij
2003-11-27 10:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ian,

Well, obsolete may not be the right word, but my english is not that good
and I've to compete with Geoff's optimism.<g>
If a tool and language fits the purpose like assembly for a 80c51
microcontroller then there's nothing against it. I still use assembly for
this purpose, but for my desktop computer I wouldn't write a program in
this language anymore and I call it obsolete then. VO is build on the
win32-api a decade ago and in the mean while OS's have changed, languages
have changed and developertools have been renewed/improved. VO has been
standing still these years and has only been bugfixed. I agree that VO has
a lot of power, but my honest opinion is that starting to learn windows now
should NOT been done in VO and then follow a migration to another language
in a couple of months/years when VO gets obsolete for your purposes. Just
look at the market and the things both tools offer and then make your own
choice to start with. But the most imported thing is have phun with it.

Rens
Jamie
2003-11-27 15:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
Lots of food for thought, and valuable advice. Thx much.
One thing though, how could you say that VO is already obsolete? What's out
there that's so "late and great" that VO won't do ?
I would say that VO is obsolete. It doesn't mean you can't still use it.
It's just limited.
Post by Ian Henderson
I can understand the compelling reasons insofar as that's where the crowd
and support is. But is the new technology really that much superior and
productive?
It's more than just crowd mentality. Sure there are some moving to .Net
simply because it is the latest thing, but there are some real benefits.
You need to start working with it to see how powerful it is.
Post by Ian Henderson
http://www.csharphelp.com/archives3/archive526.html
Conceptually, the whole .net framework sounds really cool, and .
I know you couldn't compare based on a superficial glance but .
"Designing A Winform In C# And Linking It To A SQL Server Database"
No big deal for VO but, for this environment you seem to have to do so much.
Form designers, table designers etc are there as you'd expect, then I see
huge amounts of (subjectively) ugly looking code!! A portion of which is
reproduced at the end of this post? Sorry for the length!!
I haven't found that I need more code in C# than in VO. Just the oposite in
fact. Maybe the code seems ugly because it is new and you don't understand
what it is doing. I could link a database to a form with just a couple
lines of code. You owe it to your self to take a serious look.
Post by Ian Henderson
So VO migrators, is it typical that it requires considerably more effort to
code in C# than with the VO language? And if so, are the new gadgets etc.
worth this disadvantage??
Regards
IanH
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 10:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Obsolete? You're nuts <g>.
You need a new dictionary.

Its limited? You're double nuts.
You need some VO training <g>.
Post by Jamie
Ian,
Post by Ian Henderson
Lots of food for thought, and valuable advice. Thx much.
One thing though, how could you say that VO is already obsolete? What's
out
Post by Ian Henderson
there that's so "late and great" that VO won't do ?
I would say that VO is obsolete. It doesn't mean you can't still use it.
It's just limited.
Jamie
2003-11-28 15:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
Obsolete? You're nuts <g>.
You need a new dictionary.
Its limited? You're double nuts.
You need some VO training <g>.
Now we're getting nasty. <g>
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 02:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Well I guess its really the subject of bar talk but essentially I don't
agree with your underlying thesis: that there is some inherant underlying
'lack' with VO. Generally there isn't. Not for what most people do and need.
I'd like you or someone to show me what .net classes can do that I can't
with Win32. Generally there isn't anything in terms of data access, GUI,
web, user interface, machine interface, object models with most MS tools and
so on. VO simply does it all. ..simply, efficiently and well.

Now - I have nothing to do with mobile devices and servers and I recognise
this as a whole other (and growing) ball game.

Where I am finding .Net useful is employing some of the MS 2003 range of
tools by writing the client access in C# and then call VO com objects for
business logic. And vice versa. Slowly over time I think I will see a
migration over to the C# side unless VO comes out with a .net product (or
perhaps CULE.net) but that will be slow. 98% of the apps we deal with are
still VO and will stay that way for a long while. Where we see useful
technology on the .net side we will grab it with both hands and throw it
into the mix but VO is still the controlling influence.

This is where I will take our VO experience and hopefully, the next VO
conference in Australia. An intelligent mix of .net and VO and this will
place us well for what may be coming next. My hope is that VO 3.0 will
arrive in time for us to employ it but in the meantime we will continue
investigating C# and CULE.net (to a lesser extent). I will also steer my
user group in this direction. Our last conference was IMHO a good blend of
VO and non-VO technologies. I would continue this theme.

Does that help clarify my position on things.
(You probably didn't care... but tough! <g>)

Geoff
Post by Jamie
Post by Geoff Schaller
Obsolete? You're nuts <g>.
You need a new dictionary.
Its limited? You're double nuts.
You need some VO training <g>.
Now we're getting nasty. <g>
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-27 11:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Nope, your dreaming.

We just trained 2 new VO'ers for our team and I know of several people in
our UG who are only migrating out of Clipper. VO makes perfect sense for
them whereas C# and the whole VS environment makes little sense. And who
cares about Unicode support??? We don't need it so its not an issue for us.
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once 2.7
is on the street.

There are plenty of good reasons to still go VO code - and a mountain of
Clipper code and DBF's are two very good ones!

Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Geoff,
I Know you're on the VO-Paylist <g>
But start learning VO now and migrate over time? PLEASE GET REAL man.
There is NO reason why anybody should learn VO now. The tool is obsolete
and stays obsolete when they only fix bugs and develop things that are
allready standard for years in other languages. So if you don't have any VO
applications to maintain.......
If you on the other hand think your tool is up to date then just one
specialy for you: Unicode support, C++ implemented it several versions and
years ago, The next version of VO AGAIN does NOT have it.
Have a nice day and dream<g>,
Rens
Gary Stark
2003-11-27 12:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
And who
cares about Unicode support??? We don't need it so its not an issue for us.
And that's a valid viewpoint.

For yourself only.

But to say "And who cares about Unicode support" is about as stupid and ignorant
a statement as I've ever heard you utter.

There are many people - in other parts of the world - who not only need it, but
needed it a year or two ago.

Geoff, you too frequently tar issues with that narrow-minded brush of yours.

You're way off base here ...
Post by Geoff Schaller
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive
Er, no, probably not.
Post by Geoff Schaller
There are plenty of good reasons to still go VO code - and a mountain of
Clipper code and DBF's are two very good ones!
Yes.



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-27 14:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once 2.7
is on the street.
Only if you've already invested years in learning VO and you don't know VS
yet. I like VO too, but let's be honest here please.
Post by Geoff Schaller
There are plenty of good reasons to still go VO code - and a mountain of
Clipper code and DBF's are two very good ones!
They are indeed the most compelling ones for me. For somebody who doesn't
have existing VO code and who doesn't plan to use DBF files, I don't know
what you'd suggest though.

Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 10:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Depends where their next job is of course.
And I said that.

If someone pops up in here and asks about VO I think we are entitled to
assume some connection via the DBF or Clipper world. So VO still makes
sense. If they're applying for a job in a VO shop then VO makes sense. If
they have taken over some VO or Clipper code then VO makes sense. But if
they applying for work in a Delphi workshop.... you figure. Surely you pick
a tool for a job. So it comes back to my orginal comment. What were they
going to do...

Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once
2.7
Post by Geoff Schaller
is on the street.
Only if you've already invested years in learning VO and you don't know VS
yet. I like VO too, but let's be honest here please.
Post by Geoff Schaller
There are plenty of good reasons to still go VO code - and a mountain of
Clipper code and DBF's are two very good ones!
They are indeed the most compelling ones for me. For somebody who doesn't
have existing VO code and who doesn't plan to use DBF files, I don't know
what you'd suggest though.
Ginny
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-28 12:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
If someone pops up in here and asks about VO I think we are entitled to
assume some connection via the DBF or Clipper world. If
they have taken over some VO or Clipper code then VO makes sense.
Because nobody else in their right mind would even consider VO? Even if they
are from a Clipper background, I don't believe that VO is necessarily the
right migration path for Clipper code today, although it certainly would
have been 10 years ago if VO had been as usable a tool 10 years ago as it is
now. There are far more former Clipper developers who use something other
than VO than those who do.

But if
Post by Geoff Schaller
they applying for work in a Delphi workshop.... you figure. Surely you pick
a tool for a job. So it comes back to my orginal comment. What were they
going to do...
Right. If they're maintaining VO code, then they should learn VO. If they
are only now looking for a Windows development langauge, they should also
see what else is available. They should find out what is being actively
maintained and what is getting only bug fixes. Let's get honest. If somebody
didn't have legacy VO code already (or a job at a company that did), would
you honestly recommend VO today? And if so, why?

Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 13:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Ok - 'motherhood' statements.
I happen to agree with them all.
Post by Ginny Caughey
maintained and what is getting only bug fixes. Let's get honest. If somebody
didn't have legacy VO code already (or a job at a company that did), would
you honestly recommend VO today? And if so, why?
Yes, let's get honest. This is a VO forum haunted by clipper/vo related
people. I have VO workshop and run a VO UG and attend VO conferences. The
people I mix with are from that genre and therefor it is a reasonable thing
to recommend VO to them. If they pop up here its a fair bet there's some of
this in their blood. I don't deal with non-VO related code or people
enquiring about such. Hence its not an issue I need to deal with. I would
recommend what was appropriate for the circumstances of the person and to
whom they were to be getting involved with.

Geoff
Jamie
2003-11-27 15:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
We just trained 2 new VO'ers for our team and I know of several people in
our UG who are only migrating out of Clipper. VO makes perfect sense for
them whereas C# and the whole VS environment makes little sense.
I'm not sure why they would bother to rewrite in VO when there are better
options out there. Lets be honest. It's a rewrite if you do it properly.
Post by Geoff Schaller
And who
cares about Unicode support???
Obviously some do.
Post by Geoff Schaller
We don't need it so its not an issue for us.
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once 2.7
is on the street.
In your dreams Geoff. VS .Net is a first rate, powerful and very productive
environment. The VO IDE is limited to say the least.
Post by Geoff Schaller
There are plenty of good reasons to still go VO code - and a mountain of
Clipper code and DBF's are two very good ones!
The Clipper code should go anyways. You can hit DBF's table very easily
from .Net. I do it all the time.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Geoff,
I Know you're on the VO-Paylist <g>
But start learning VO now and migrate over time? PLEASE GET REAL man.
There is NO reason why anybody should learn VO now. The tool is obsolete
and stays obsolete when they only fix bugs and develop things that are
allready standard for years in other languages. So if you don't have any
VO
Post by Rens Renooij
applications to maintain.......
If you on the other hand think your tool is up to date then just one
specialy for you: Unicode support, C++ implemented it several versions and
years ago, The next version of VO AGAIN does NOT have it.
Have a nice day and dream<g>,
Rens
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 10:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Jamie,
Post by Jamie
I'm not sure why they would bother to rewrite in VO when there are better
options out there. Lets be honest. It's a rewrite if you do it properly.
Well I would because of the vast core libraries I already have. And VO does
the job. Admirably.
Post by Jamie
In your dreams Geoff. VS .Net is a first rate, powerful and very productive
environment. The VO IDE is limited to say the least.
No. Just not so. Yes it has some pretties and yes its good for smaller
projects but no, it just does not measure up to the large project
capabilities of VO. Give VO a try some time. You might like it <g>.
Post by Jamie
The Clipper code should go anyways. You can hit DBF's table very easily
from .Net. I do it all the time.
Maybe it will but you don't control the 10's of 1000's of companies out
there unwilling to make the change. But what do you mean by "hit" DBFs with
.net? What do you do... roll up a .net magazine and throw it? <g>. That was
an amazingly inarticulate comment.

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-28 12:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Jamie
I'm not sure why they would bother to rewrite in VO when there are better
options out there. Lets be honest. It's a rewrite if you do it properly.
Well I would because of the vast core libraries I already have. And VO does
the job. Admirably.
What if your vast core libraries won't run in .Net? Or what if there are
better vast core libraries available for .Net than yours? You must not have
spent much time working with Cule if you believe that your VO libraries will
work unchanged in Cule using only the language itself. A compatibility
library layer would be required just to support the VO runtime functions.
Maybe an open source VO runtime library written in Cule will appear, and
maybe you'll even spearhead the effort or make contributions, but I know how
you generally feel about open source projects. <g>
Post by Geoff Schaller
No. Just not so. Yes it has some pretties and yes its good for smaller
projects but no, it just does not measure up to the large project
capabilities of VO. Give VO a try some time. You might like it <g>.
How on earth would you know how Visual Studio works for large projects? You
have zero experience with large projects written using Visual Studio. Please
be honest here. Jamie has more experience with both VO and with VS than you
do. Sometimes you should listen instead of talk.

Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 13:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
What if your vast core libraries won't run in .Net? Or what if there are
better vast core libraries available for .Net than yours? You must not have
But this won't happen, will it. I run on a Win32 platform and given Server
2003 and XP are just that, I'll have plenty of time to worry about moving
over later. And secondly, there is nothing, NOTHING yet in the .net
libraries that I need or that I can't get now. And with our Outlook and
SharePoint integration, its writing COM wrappers for .Net libs to call our
VO modules. Its easy - no big deal. Thus we have .net integration where it
makes sense to have it and VO where we need it. A stable marriage.
Post by Ginny Caughey
spent much time working with Cule if you believe that your VO libraries will
work unchanged in Cule using only the language itself. A compatibility
But I'm not sure its relevant. I'll move to .net and when I do, the
development will be all in .net. That's what we do now. Where we need .net
things we just wrap them up into components. Likewise for VO components to
be called from VO. We will slowly build up our classes and libs in .net
Post by Ginny Caughey
How on earth would you know how Visual Studio works for large projects? You
have zero experience with large projects written using Visual Studio. Please
Uh huh... wrong. Please.I haven't been sitting still. I am now embarking on
our ISV program and will be doing the recommended tutorials and programs for
the qualifying certificates. I guess you will know what these are. So far,
the "big" project is still quite a task (made more difficult by my single
monitor workstation). Its just not as easy to find entity level things in
the VS editors and the source code generated is enormous (heck... 60% of it
seems to be comments <g>). Sorry but I still find VO a breeze to work with
compared with VS.
Post by Ginny Caughey
be honest here. Jamie has more experience with both VO and with VS than you
do. Sometimes you should listen instead of talk.
Does he? He doesn't come across as such.
In fact he's quite sarcastic and negative toward VO most of the time.

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 12:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Ginny Caughey
What if your vast core libraries won't run in .Net? Or what if there are
better vast core libraries available for .Net than yours? You must not
have
But this won't happen, will it.
Assuming that your own core libraries are written in VO, either Cule or VO 3
would need to wrap all the VO runtime for .Net, or you will need to do this
yourself.

2003 and XP are just that, I'll have plenty of time to worry about moving
Post by Geoff Schaller
over later. And secondly, there is nothing, NOTHING yet in the .net
libraries that I need or that I can't get now. And with our Outlook and
If a hammer is your only tool, every challenge looks like nail, eh? <g>
Post by Geoff Schaller
SharePoint integration, its writing COM wrappers for .Net libs to call our
VO modules. Its easy - no big deal. Thus we have .net integration where it
makes sense to have it and VO where we need it. A stable marriage.
Be sure to use VOCOM if you do decide to go this route. I didn't find VO's
COM implementation to be at all stable in this scenario (although perhaps
this will change for 2.7 or 2.8)
Post by Geoff Schaller
Uh huh... wrong. Please.I haven't been sitting still. I am now embarking on
our ISV program and will be doing the recommended tutorials and programs for
the qualifying certificates. I guess you will know what these are. So far,
the "big" project is still quite a task (made more difficult by my single
monitor workstation). Its just not as easy to find entity level things in
the VS editors and the source code generated is enormous (heck... 60% of it
seems to be comments <g>). Sorry but I still find VO a breeze to work with
compared with VS.
The source code generated by VO isn't really designed for human eyes either,
but you have learned to tune it out. You just don't know Visual Studio yet.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Ginny Caughey
be honest here. Jamie has more experience with both VO and with VS than
you
Post by Ginny Caughey
do. Sometimes you should listen instead of talk.
Does he? He doesn't come across as such.
In fact he's quite sarcastic and negative toward VO most of the time.
He's used VO since VO 1.0 and VS since VS 2002.You are Johnny Come Lately.
(Do Australians use that phrase?)

Ginny
Gary Stark
2003-11-29 20:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
SharePoint integration, its writing COM wrappers for .Net libs to call our
VO modules. Its easy - no big deal. Thus we have .net integration where it
makes sense to have it and VO where we need it. A stable marriage.
Be sure to use VOCOM if you do decide to go this route. I didn't find VO's
COM implementation to be at all stable in this scenario (although perhaps
this will change for 2.7 or 2.8)
I find that integrating COM objects into VO is a real PITA, especially when they
involve events, and then especially when compared with how easy this is to do
within VS.

Geoff is blowing serious hot air here when he says VO is the better product;
being the Thanksgiving weekend, I think I know where the turkey is.

VO clearly has many benefits and is a very elegant tool, but its implementation
of COM is just so totally out of character with the rest of ...
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
the qualifying certificates. I guess you will know what these are. So far,
the "big" project is still quite a task (made more difficult by my single
monitor workstation). Its just not as easy to find entity level things in
Try the object browser (the hard way IMO), or perhaps select the object in the
source code editor's leftmost dropdown, whereupon the entities attached to the
object will be available in the rightmost dropdown. They're all available there
on the one window; no need to jump to the repo's window to find them.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
the VS editors and the source code generated is enormous (heck... 60% of
it
Post by Geoff Schaller
seems to be comments <g>). Sorry but I still find VO a breeze to work with
compared with VS.
The source code generated by VO isn't really designed for human eyes either,
but you have learned to tune it out. You just don't know Visual Studio yet.
Exactly.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Ginny Caughey
be honest here. Jamie has more experience with both VO and with VS than
you
Post by Ginny Caughey
do. Sometimes you should listen instead of talk.
Does he? He doesn't come across as such.
In fact he's quite sarcastic and negative toward VO most of the time.
He's used VO since VO 1.0 and VS since VS 2002.You are Johnny Come Lately.
(Do Australians use that phrase?)
We do, and in this case (both for VO and VS), it applies totally to Geoff Come
Lately.



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Stephane Hebert
2003-11-29 20:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
I find that integrating COM objects into VO is a real PITA, especially when they
involve events, and then especially when compared with how easy this is to do
within VS.
I second that . I had to use VB to wrap some COM stuff to be able to use it
with my VO app.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who had to use this alternative.

VO sucks when it comes to COM.

Steph
Post by Gary Stark
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
SharePoint integration, its writing COM wrappers for .Net libs to call our
VO modules. Its easy - no big deal. Thus we have .net integration where it
makes sense to have it and VO where we need it. A stable marriage.
Be sure to use VOCOM if you do decide to go this route. I didn't find VO's
COM implementation to be at all stable in this scenario (although perhaps
this will change for 2.7 or 2.8)
I find that integrating COM objects into VO is a real PITA, especially when they
involve events, and then especially when compared with how easy this is to do
within VS.
Geoff is blowing serious hot air here when he says VO is the better product;
being the Thanksgiving weekend, I think I know where the turkey is.
VO clearly has many benefits and is a very elegant tool, but its implementation
of COM is just so totally out of character with the rest of ...
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
the qualifying certificates. I guess you will know what these are. So far,
the "big" project is still quite a task (made more difficult by my single
monitor workstation). Its just not as easy to find entity level things in
Try the object browser (the hard way IMO), or perhaps select the object in the
source code editor's leftmost dropdown, whereupon the entities attached to the
object will be available in the rightmost dropdown. They're all available there
on the one window; no need to jump to the repo's window to find them.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
the VS editors and the source code generated is enormous (heck... 60% of
it
Post by Geoff Schaller
seems to be comments <g>). Sorry but I still find VO a breeze to work with
compared with VS.
The source code generated by VO isn't really designed for human eyes either,
but you have learned to tune it out. You just don't know Visual Studio yet.
Exactly.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Ginny Caughey
be honest here. Jamie has more experience with both VO and with VS than
you
Post by Ginny Caughey
do. Sometimes you should listen instead of talk.
Does he? He doesn't come across as such.
In fact he's quite sarcastic and negative toward VO most of the time.
He's used VO since VO 1.0 and VS since VS 2002.You are Johnny Come Lately.
(Do Australians use that phrase?)
We do, and in this case (both for VO and VS), it applies totally to Geoff Come
Lately.
--
g.
Gary Stark
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Gary Stark
2003-11-29 21:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Steph,
Post by Rens Renooij
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
I find that integrating COM objects into VO is a real PITA, especially
when they
Post by Gary Stark
involve events, and then especially when compared with how easy this is to
do
Post by Gary Stark
within VS.
I second that . I had to use VB to wrap some COM stuff to be able to use it
with my VO app.
I've had to do exactly that more than once too. It's not too bad if there's
only a few events and methods that you want to expose, but if there's a lot ....




Geoff-Come-Lately will probably argue the contrary of course, but then again, he
believes that the sky is rose coloured and Bill can program.


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 21:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff is blowing serious hot air here when he says VO is the better product;
being the Thanksgiving weekend, I think I know where the turkey is.
You've missed the mark as usual. My point is that I can achieve better
coding productivity with VO on larger projects than is possible with VS. Its
not about a feature for feature comparison. And VS has a ton of wonderful
junk that just never get's used in our setup. Gary, its about coding
productivity....

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 22:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
You've missed the mark as usual. My point is that I can achieve better
coding productivity with VO on larger projects than is possible with VS. Its
not about a feature for feature comparison. And VS has a ton of wonderful
junk that just never get's used in our setup. Gary, its about coding
productivity....
It's about knowing how to use a tool to get that productivity. You've said
it over and over that VS isn't as productive for large projects as VO and
you are still wrong. You just don't know know how to use VS if you find
large projects to be a problem, although I am still curious what large
projects you have even tried out in VS.

Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-30 11:19:21 UTC
Permalink
The MS ones they use as samples in their courses.

And as you said it - its what you are used to. I am used to VO and don't
need to "learn" another just yet. I get my productivity from VO. And so far
VS does not have the runs on the board, sorry. The code shops I've seen
(although not many) just don't handle it well. I accuse Borland's C++
Builder of the same criticism.

Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
You've missed the mark as usual. My point is that I can achieve better
coding productivity with VO on larger projects than is possible with VS.
Its
Post by Geoff Schaller
not about a feature for feature comparison. And VS has a ton of wonderful
junk that just never get's used in our setup. Gary, its about coding
productivity....
It's about knowing how to use a tool to get that productivity. You've said
it over and over that VS isn't as productive for large projects as VO and
you are still wrong. You just don't know know how to use VS if you find
large projects to be a problem, although I am still curious what large
projects you have even tried out in VS.
Ginny
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 14:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,

Then you haven't built any large apps yourself with VS, as I assumed. Just
looking at somebody else's code doesn't teach you to use the IDE
productively. BTW I don't consider those samples large production-sized
apps.
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
The MS ones they use as samples in their courses.
And as you said it - its what you are used to. I am used to VO and don't
need to "learn" another just yet. I get my productivity from VO. And so far
VS does not have the runs on the board, sorry. The code shops I've seen
(although not many) just don't handle it well. I accuse Borland's C++
Builder of the same criticism.
Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
You've missed the mark as usual. My point is that I can achieve better
coding productivity with VO on larger projects than is possible with VS.
Its
Post by Geoff Schaller
not about a feature for feature comparison. And VS has a ton of
wonderful
Post by Rens Renooij
Post by Geoff Schaller
junk that just never get's used in our setup. Gary, its about coding
productivity....
It's about knowing how to use a tool to get that productivity. You've said
it over and over that VS isn't as productive for large projects as VO and
you are still wrong. You just don't know know how to use VS if you find
large projects to be a problem, although I am still curious what large
projects you have even tried out in VS.
Ginny
Gary Stark
2003-11-29 22:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

I love this!
Post by Gary Stark
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff is blowing serious hot air here when he says VO is the better
product;
Post by Gary Stark
being the Thanksgiving weekend, I think I know where the turkey is.
You've missed the mark as usual. My point is that I can achieve better
coding productivity with VO on larger projects than is possible with VS. Its
And that's where you are not just seriously, but deleriously, wrong.

Oh, hang on a second, I see ....

You said "My point is that I can achieve better coding productivity with VO on
larger projects than is possible with VS." and yes, you're probably quite
correct. This is a total reflection on YOUR capabilities more than anything
else, I suspect.


You really shouldn't be projecting your capabilities and problems upon the rest
of us: while you're still (obviously) struggling to understand the VS IDE, many
of us are well past that point.
Post by Gary Stark
not about a feature for feature comparison. And VS has a ton of wonderful
junk that just never get's used in our setup. Gary, its about coding
productivity....
Or perhaps in your case, the absence of it. :)


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Rick Spence
2003-11-29 22:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

What, specifically, allows you to achieve better coding productivity
with VO? What feature does VO have which provides this that VS does not?
I have zero experience with VO 2, so I'm genuinely interested in what
wonderful features the VO IDE and / or language has that VS / C# doesn't.

I'm sure *you're* more productive with VO than VS / C# - I'm more
productive in Delphi than VS / C#, but that's not what you said. You
said "than is *possible* with VS".

It takes a while to be genuinely productive in a language / environment,
and I suspect it will be close to 6 months before I'm as productive in
VS / C# than I am in Delphi. And there are certain things I still prefer
in Delphi (to be specific the class declaration in Pascal is completely
separate from the implementation, which I much prefer. C#, C++, and Java
don't work this way however, and in C# I can get used it; the folding
editor really helps with this - just hide the code and you don't see it).

I know people who have a large code base in VO have no option than to
stick with it in the short term - no argument there. And there's little
doubt that you're better off, short term, with Brian / Robert et. al
looking after the product than CA.

I don't know how long you've been around here, but Graham and Ginney
(and others) have been using / trying to use VO for a long time. The joy
/ relief they are experiencing with VS / C#, I'm sure, is similar to
when I dropped VO 1 in favour of Delphi years ago. I can't speak for
either of them, but I'll bet they wished they'd made a move before they
did. It takes a long time to move.

In the Delphi camp we're a bit luckier than most; Delphi 8 is supposed
to make it easy to move existing applications - as well as the compiler
targeting Microsoft's IL/ common run-time, the class libraries and
database access libraries have been ported to .net as well.

Regards,

Rick
Post by Gary Stark
Gary,
Post by Gary Stark
Geoff is blowing serious hot air here when he says VO is the better
product;
Post by Gary Stark
being the Thanksgiving weekend, I think I know where the turkey is.
You've missed the mark as usual. My point is that I can achieve better
coding productivity with VO on larger projects than is possible with VS. Its
not about a feature for feature comparison. And VS has a ton of wonderful
junk that just never get's used in our setup. Gary, its about coding
productivity....
Geoff
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-29 23:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Rick and I can see to point of your case..

The move... or more importantly the thought of moving requires timing for
the future development and management of the past.. CODE and even clients.
The cost in time and money and pain is considerable. You need to see some
reward for the effort. The productivity of the LANGUAGE and IDE are such a
personal things and a very emotive subject because change is difficult.

If a developer was using say XML at lot, VO is not very productive product
as there is no XML native support or tools where I see in Visual Studio this
is all built in. This is just one example. This is not to say a 3rd party
tool would not add this functionality to VO and may be a fine solution. If
VO was proactive these "nick-nacks' would be added to stop differentiation
from competitive products. If you do not need anymore that what VO can do
it is very productive and most desktop development VO is adequate and fas to
put code together and its very reliably. VO from my experience delivers all
this today and it works fine.

However the combination of Desktop and Web and Intranet development for the
future is hard to ignore and to pick the right tools or tools or backend is
always under consideration. For us it is a 2 language solution and it
works.

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-------------------
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-30 11:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Hello Rick.
Post by Rick Spence
What, specifically, allows you to achieve better coding productivity
with VO? What feature does VO have which provides this that VS does not?
Despite its quirks, the main feature of VO in managing large projects (and
yes, I use VOPP to help achieve this) is the ability to see and manage a
huge range of apps, modules and entities in a collapsible treeview that is
simple to expand and search. There is nothing in VS which approaches this.
The drop down panes are small and the code opens up in one huge block. This
is a pane <g> ... sorry. Entity sorting and searching is so much easier
although I miss VS's image handling and auto-docked controls. Of course 2.7
takes these features to new levels, including having multiple repos open and
better sorting options in the listview. Anyone can edit a form - anyone can
edit some text. The issue is finding and managing 30+ dll's, each with up to
30 modules in each and then entities below that. This is just very awkward
at best in VS.
Post by Rick Spence
I'm sure *you're* more productive with VO than VS / C# - I'm more
productive in Delphi than VS / C#, but that's not what you said. You
Yes - it is my primary point. You are correct in saying that it takes very
little for a competent developer to become profficient in any IDE and at the
form/entity level, most are reasonably similar. I happen to think that VS is
a fine tool but it is an attempt to be all things to all people. It therefor
has a ton of stuff a lot of people would rarely use but at the large project
end, I don't think it measures up yet. And let's say its just as good. That
is no reason on its own to go there. If it were much better my attitude
would be different but there just isn't the evidence for this.
Post by Rick Spence
I don't know how long you've been around here, but Graham and Ginney
(and others) have been using / trying to use VO for a long time. The joy
They have both abandoned VO for various reasons. My attitude is also for
people to review and experience everything that is around, including VS. But
many will not because of cost. Heck, if they think VO is expensive then they
are going to have trouble with VS <g>. This is a VO forum. I don't think its
appropriate to be suggesting people abandon VO just because they themselves
had to move. Its kind of like they're needing to justify their move <g>.
Just do it!
Post by Rick Spence
In the Delphi camp we're a bit luckier than most; Delphi 8 is supposed
to make it easy to move existing applications - as well as the compiler
Well it will be interesting to review the outcome. The Delphi people I've
knocked around with weren't keen but the jury was still out. I see some
serious Delphi types once a year. Its actually interesting to review their
attitudes over that timescale.

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 14:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
Despite its quirks, the main feature of VO in managing large projects (and
yes, I use VOPP to help achieve this) is the ability to see and manage a
huge range of apps, modules and entities in a collapsible treeview that is
simple to expand and search. There is nothing in VS which approaches this.
Have you even looked at the VS Solution and Object treeviews?
Post by Geoff Schaller
The drop down panes are small and the code opens up in one huge block. This
is a pane <g> ... sorry. Entity sorting and searching is so much easier
The panes are whatever size you choose to make them. The code opens up
however you choose. (See #region in C#)
Post by Geoff Schaller
although I miss VS's image handling and auto-docked controls. Of course 2.7
and even this is configurable. You should have attended my VS session at
your conference. <g>
Post by Geoff Schaller
takes these features to new levels, including having multiple repos open and
better sorting options in the listview. Anyone can edit a form - anyone can
Wow. Imagine being able to actually open two copies of VO at once. I am
looking forward to it myself, but this is something the rest of the world
has had almost since Windows.
Post by Geoff Schaller
edit some text. The issue is finding and managing 30+ dll's, each with up to
30 modules in each and then entities below that. This is just very awkward
at best in VS.
It is actually easier in VS since you can group multiple apps/DLLs into a
solution and manipulate them from the Solution treeview.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Rick Spence
I don't know how long you've been around here, but Graham and Ginney
(and others) have been using / trying to use VO for a long time. The joy
They have both abandoned VO for various reasons.
That is certainly news to me! I still use VO every day! That is the main
reason I am annoyed by its remaining bugs and IDE quirks, and why I hope
that 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 or whatever. finally fixes them.

Geoff, one more time: PLEASE BE HONEST HERE! It really hurts your
credibility when you intentionally misrepresent the facts.

Ginny
Gary Stark
2003-11-30 22:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
edit some text. The issue is finding and managing 30+ dll's, each with up
to
Post by Geoff Schaller
30 modules in each and then entities below that. This is just very awkward
at best in VS.
It is actually easier in VS since you can group multiple apps/DLLs into a
solution and manipulate them from the Solution treeview.
Not to mention the ability to easily share the same source files amongst many
diverse applications.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Rick Spence
I don't know how long you've been around here, but Graham and Ginney
(and others) have been using / trying to use VO for a long time. The joy
They have both abandoned VO for various reasons.
That is certainly news to me! I still use VO every day! That is the main
reason I am annoyed by its remaining bugs and IDE quirks, and why I hope
that 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 or whatever. finally fixes them.
Geoff, one more time: PLEASE BE HONEST HERE! It really hurts your
credibility when you intentionally misrepresent the facts.
Or it would, were he to have any. :)



--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Phil McGuinness
2003-11-30 22:45:34 UTC
Permalink
I just saw the product that would convince me to go further with .NET

This allows you to build your .NET that will run without the .NETframework
by linking and building in everything required to run.

http://www.remotesoft.com/linker/

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-------------------------------------------
Post by Geoff Schaller
Ginny,
edit
Geoff Schaller
2003-12-01 12:05:41 UTC
Permalink
Sorry but I disagree.

At this point its up to the individuals to draw their own conclusions. And
it will be interesting to see how people rate it over time.

Geoff
Rick Spence
2003-12-01 02:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello Geoff,

Could I ask you two questions?

1. What drug are you on?
2. Can I get some?

All kidding aside, good to you for defending your position. I can't
remember enough VO to comment, really. I'm sure Grum will have a go.

I'll keep you posted as to my experiences with Delphi 8.

Sure, there's no reason to go with .net. It somewhat depends what
business you are in. A lot of us don't have apps we've written and have
to maintain, as I'm guessing you do. If you've doen that in VO you must
stick with it in the short term.

I, and lots of others, need to be where the work is - whether it's
consulting, development, training etc. That's always been my main issue
with VO. We need marketable skills. And I know, no matter what you smoke
before getting on here (just kidding 'bout that, I've never met you),
that you wouldn't suggest that there are more opportunities in those
areas in VO, than in .NET or Delphi.

Regards,

Rick
Post by Geoff Schaller
Hello Rick.
Post by Rick Spence
What, specifically, allows you to achieve better coding productivity
with VO? What feature does VO have which provides this that VS does not?
Despite its quirks, the main feature of VO in managing large projects (and
yes, I use VOPP to help achieve this) is the ability to see and manage a
huge range of apps, modules and entities in a collapsible treeview that is
simple to expand and search. There is nothing in VS which approaches this.
The drop down panes are small and the code opens up in one huge block. This
is a pane <g> ... sorry. Entity sorting and searching is so much easier
although I miss VS's image handling and auto-docked controls. Of course 2.7
takes these features to new levels, including having multiple repos open and
better sorting options in the listview. Anyone can edit a form - anyone can
edit some text. The issue is finding and managing 30+ dll's, each with up to
30 modules in each and then entities below that. This is just very awkward
at best in VS.
Post by Rick Spence
I'm sure *you're* more productive with VO than VS / C# - I'm more
productive in Delphi than VS / C#, but that's not what you said. You
Yes - it is my primary point. You are correct in saying that it takes very
little for a competent developer to become profficient in any IDE and at the
form/entity level, most are reasonably similar. I happen to think that VS is
a fine tool but it is an attempt to be all things to all people. It therefor
has a ton of stuff a lot of people would rarely use but at the large project
end, I don't think it measures up yet. And let's say its just as good. That
is no reason on its own to go there. If it were much better my attitude
would be different but there just isn't the evidence for this.
Post by Rick Spence
I don't know how long you've been around here, but Graham and Ginney
(and others) have been using / trying to use VO for a long time. The joy
They have both abandoned VO for various reasons. My attitude is also for
people to review and experience everything that is around, including VS. But
many will not because of cost. Heck, if they think VO is expensive then they
are going to have trouble with VS <g>. This is a VO forum. I don't think its
appropriate to be suggesting people abandon VO just because they themselves
had to move. Its kind of like they're needing to justify their move <g>.
Just do it!
Post by Rick Spence
In the Delphi camp we're a bit luckier than most; Delphi 8 is supposed
to make it easy to move existing applications - as well as the compiler
Well it will be interesting to review the outcome. The Delphi people I've
knocked around with weren't keen but the jury was still out. I see some
serious Delphi types once a year. Its actually interesting to review their
attitudes over that timescale.
Geoff
Phil McGuinness
2003-12-01 02:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Rick,

snip[ I, and lots of others, need to be where the work is - whether it's
consulting, development, training etc. ]

I can understand and accept that argument for sure.. You gotta go where the
bucks are.
Change creates an industry in itself...

Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
------------
Gary Stark
2003-12-01 04:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Rick,
Post by Rick Spence
Hello Geoff,
Could I ask you two questions?
1. What drug are you on?
2. Can I get some?
Geoff grows his own.

And he rolls his own.

Can you tell ?


--
g.
Gary Stark
***@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Geoff Schaller
2003-12-01 12:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Rick,

It doesn't seem we are having the same conversation about the same subject
so I guess we can part conversations.

Cheers.

Geoff

Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 21:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
He's used VO since VO 1.0 and VS since VS 2002.You are Johnny Come Lately.
(Do Australians use that phrase?)
Yes we do... but if he's been using VO since 1.0 then he doesn't come as if
he has. And anyway, there are a lot of people in here who have been 'using'
VO a lot longer than me. Many seem to be still asking relatively elementary
questions. Does acquaintence time correspond to knowledge levels?

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 22:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

If 'many" people here have used VO longer than you and are "still asking
elementary questions" I think that shows that VO's docs need work and/or
that the tools aren't intuitive. But in any case, I don't recall Jamie
asking any elementary questions, much less "many" of them, so you are being
insulting to him for no reason as far as I can tell.
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
Ginny,
Post by Ginny Caughey
He's used VO since VO 1.0 and VS since VS 2002.You are Johnny Come Lately.
(Do Australians use that phrase?)
Yes we do... but if he's been using VO since 1.0 then he doesn't come as if
he has. And anyway, there are a lot of people in here who have been 'using'
VO a lot longer than me. Many seem to be still asking relatively elementary
questions. Does acquaintence time correspond to knowledge levels?
Geoff
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-30 11:35:34 UTC
Permalink
No. So totally not true.
It merely means they don't use it as much.
Post by Rens Renooij
Geoff,
If 'many" people here have used VO longer than you and are "still asking
elementary questions" I think that shows that VO's docs need work and/or
that the tools aren't intuitive. But in any case, I don't recall Jamie
asking any elementary questions, much less "many" of them, so you are being
insulting to him for no reason as far as I can tell.
--
Ginny
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-30 14:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
It merely means they don't use it as much.
Now why would that be? <G> The only "elementary" questions I see long-time
VO developers asking is how to work with OLE events and stuff like that. I'd
ask too, but I know the answer is to use a VB wrapper. <g> They also ask
about 3rd party libraries that are new to them. I'd be asking questions
myself about VO2Ado except Robert has produced such a terrific product that
after just asking him a couple of basic questions, things just work.

Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Rens Renooij
Geoff,
If 'many" people here have used VO longer than you and are "still asking
elementary questions" I think that shows that VO's docs need work and/or
that the tools aren't intuitive. But in any case, I don't recall Jamie
asking any elementary questions, much less "many" of them, so you are
being
Post by Rens Renooij
insulting to him for no reason as far as I can tell.
--
Ginny
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-27 18:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
We just trained 2 new VO'ers for our team and I know of several people in
our UG who are only migrating out of Clipper. VO makes perfect sense for
them whereas C# and the whole VS environment makes little sense. And who
cares about Unicode support??? We don't need it so its not an issue for us.
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once 2.7
is on the street.
Guys just migrating from Clipper. They must be really serious programmers
Geoff, or have they been in the slammer these last 10 years. Not a very good
example, I reckon you could have left that out.
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once 2.7
is on the street.
Geoff, you have told me you have hardly used VS. I therefore don't
understand why you think we would accept the above statement. If you have
spent time with VS, then yes I think I could see where you are coming from.
But it really is a stupid statement.

Ian doesn't have previous VO experience. Therefore going the VO route, when
there are better tools around, with on going support, just doesn't make
sense.

Gary pulled you up on Unicode - so I'll leave it.

A mountain of Clipper code, I shudder to think what it would look like.

Graham
Post by Geoff Schaller
Nope, your dreaming.
We just trained 2 new VO'ers for our team and I know of several people in
our UG who are only migrating out of Clipper. VO makes perfect sense for
them whereas C# and the whole VS environment makes little sense. And who
cares about Unicode support??? We don't need it so its not an issue for us.
But VO's productivity still eats VS alive and will do even more so once 2.7
is on the street.
There are plenty of good reasons to still go VO code - and a mountain of
Clipper code and DBF's are two very good ones!
Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Hi Geoff,
I Know you're on the VO-Paylist <g>
But start learning VO now and migrate over time? PLEASE GET REAL man.
There is NO reason why anybody should learn VO now. The tool is obsolete
and stays obsolete when they only fix bugs and develop things that are
allready standard for years in other languages. So if you don't have any
VO
Post by Rens Renooij
applications to maintain.......
If you on the other hand think your tool is up to date then just one
specialy for you: Unicode support, C++ implemented it several versions and
years ago, The next version of VO AGAIN does NOT have it.
Have a nice day and dream<g>,
Rens
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 10:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Graham,
Post by Graham McKechnie
Guys just migrating from Clipper. They must be really serious programmers
Geoff, or have they been in the slammer these last 10 years. Not a very good
example, I reckon you could have left that out.
Whatever..., you'll have to take that up with them but I certainly won't
insult them over it <g>. As I see it, some people have no choice in the
matter but have to support the stuff anyway. Why is that an issue with you?
Post by Graham McKechnie
Geoff, you have told me you have hardly used VS. I therefore don't
understand why you think we would accept the above statement. If you have
spent time with VS, then yes I think I could see where you are coming from.
But it really is a stupid statement.
??? I've spent enough time - and your very own demo in our office not so
long ago raised a number a negative issues with VS. You admitted them
yourself. But I'm not starting a war between the two IDEs. I only attack the
presumption that VO is no good in comparison with VO. That's the clearly
incorrect statement.
Post by Graham McKechnie
Gary pulled you up on Unicode - so I'll leave it.
I'm sorry but no he didn't. His remark was purely sarcastic so I ignored it.
And it was ignorant. Of coure Unicode has some measure in some quarters but
the reality is that it has no measure in many more. We don't need it and I
said that in the same context as the 'someone' who raised it as if it was
vital. Its not a show stopper... and if it is then you shift. Period.
Anyway, Unoicode has been promised for 2.8 so there's no point being shirty
about it.

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-28 12:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
I'm sorry but no he didn't. His remark was purely sarcastic so I ignored it.
And it was ignorant. Of coure Unicode has some measure in some quarters but
the reality is that it has no measure in many more. We don't need it and I
said that in the same context as the 'someone' who raised it as if it was
vital. Its not a show stopper... and if it is then you shift. Period.
Anyway, Unoicode has been promised for 2.8 so there's no point being shirty
about it.
Unicode was also promised for 2.5, so maybe it is correct to assume that
anybody still using VO really doesn't need Unicode. <g>

Ginny
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-28 13:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ginny Caughey
Unicode was also promised for 2.5, so maybe it is correct to assume that
anybody still using VO really doesn't need Unicode. <g>
Ummm, not sure that you're entitled yet to lump CA's promise history on
Brian <g>.

Let's at least give the team a chance. To be fair (and Robert/Brian
explained all this), they understood the necessity of Unicode support but
they also had to prioritise. I'm in favour of basic repo stuff being fixed
first then by all means... let's launch into the next round of
necessities...
Ginny Caughey
2003-11-29 12:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

Since I personally don't need Unicode support either, I am also happy with
the way Brian has prioritized tasks. My point was that those who really need
it have probably stopped waiting and switched to something else, no matter
who's "fault" it is that the feature isn't there yet.
--
Ginny
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Ginny Caughey
Unicode was also promised for 2.5, so maybe it is correct to assume that
anybody still using VO really doesn't need Unicode. <g>
Ummm, not sure that you're entitled yet to lump CA's promise history on
Brian <g>.
Let's at least give the team a chance. To be fair (and Robert/Brian
explained all this), they understood the necessity of Unicode support but
they also had to prioritise. I'm in favour of basic repo stuff being fixed
first then by all means... let's launch into the next round of
necessities...
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-29 00:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
Whatever..., you'll have to take that up with them but I certainly won't
insult them over it <g>. As I see it, some people have no choice in the
matter but have to support the stuff anyway. Why is that an issue with you?
Geoff, its not an issue with me. But quoting guys who are just getting into
Window's programming 10-12 years on, its a bit far fetched for us to
consider them as programmers on the bleeding edge mate. Just a poor example.
I doubt whatever they choose now will help them much and no insult intended.
Post by Geoff Schaller
??? I've spent enough time - and your very own demo in our office not so
long ago raised a number a negative issues with VS. You admitted them
yourself. But I'm not starting a war between the two IDEs.
I hope you are not, because you would lose that one. Geoff, you simply
wouldn't know because you haven't as yet built a large project in Visual
Studio. Jeez you were complaining about too many scrollbars when I did that
demo, but you didn't see one when I showed VS. If you haven't used the thing
for a large project, then please don't make rediculous statements like that.
Why would anyone believe you?

Geoff, I clearly stated that my Toshiba laptop didn't like VS or vice versa.
I also stated that my desktop, which is really old, handles it just fine.
Please don't make up crap for the sake of it. Even the Toshiba is working
fine now with VS - just some glitches in the way they put stuff together,
which is about par for the course with laptops when you first get going with
a new one.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by Geoff Schaller
Anyway, Unoicode has been promised for 2.8 so there's no point being shirty
about it.
Geoff I'm not "shirty" about anything to do with VO, the only time I'm
"pissed off" with VO is when I start it, so I do try and avoid doing that.
But I do love coming here..... - the MS forums are positively boring
compared to this place.

Graham
Post by Geoff Schaller
Hi Graham,
Post by Geoff Schaller
Guys just migrating from Clipper. They must be really serious programmers
Geoff, or have they been in the slammer these last 10 years. Not a very
good
Post by Geoff Schaller
example, I reckon you could have left that out.
Whatever..., you'll have to take that up with them but I certainly won't
insult them over it <g>. As I see it, some people have no choice in the
matter but have to support the stuff anyway. Why is that an issue with you?
Post by Geoff Schaller
Geoff, you have told me you have hardly used VS. I therefore don't
understand why you think we would accept the above statement. If you have
spent time with VS, then yes I think I could see where you are coming
from.
Post by Geoff Schaller
But it really is a stupid statement.
??? I've spent enough time - and your very own demo in our office not so
long ago raised a number a negative issues with VS. You admitted them
yourself. But I'm not starting a war between the two IDEs. I only attack the
presumption that VO is no good in comparison with VO. That's the clearly
incorrect statement.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Gary pulled you up on Unicode - so I'll leave it.
I'm sorry but no he didn't. His remark was purely sarcastic so I ignored it.
And it was ignorant. Of coure Unicode has some measure in some quarters but
the reality is that it has no measure in many more. We don't need it and I
said that in the same context as the 'someone' who raised it as if it was
vital. Its not a show stopper... and if it is then you shift. Period.
Anyway, Unoicode has been promised for 2.8 so there's no point being shirty
about it.
Geoff
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 02:34:25 UTC
Permalink
So, when we are puting together the next VO conference for Aussies, can I
expect some serious input from you on VS?
Graham McKechnie
2003-11-29 08:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
So, when we are puting together the next VO conference for Aussies, can I
expect some serious input from you on VS?
Well I don't want to do Ginny out of a gig, but always happy to help out. I
promise I will pay attention this time when Mike is doing his after dinner
thing<g>.

I presume to run another conference you'd have to get backing from MS or
Borland or someone like that. It wouldn't sort of work with numbers you had
last time. Those dam break even numbers....

I must admit your conferences are the sort of conferences I enjoy going to -
I sure don't want to see PowerPoint presentations for 3 days.

Graham

"Geoff Schaller" <***@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message news:RATxb.31632$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Geoff Schaller
2003-11-29 09:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Graham,

What I'm planning next time will be in a different mould again. From the 40
guys (and one girl) who decided to turn up last time I've got a a good
handle on what to do. There will be a window of opportunity around April
next year but I want to frame things in terms of 2.7 without getting glazed
over by VO alone - oops, I've just run out of window terms... but seriously,
what we're planning will have some MS involvement anyhow. I've also got our
ISV program going and that gives us some MS resources I didn't know existed
before. But don't worry, what we're going to do will work financially or we
won't do it. There'll be a degree of commitment next time that I was silly
enough to forgo last time.

Geoff
Post by Rens Renooij
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
So, when we are puting together the next VO conference for Aussies, can I
expect some serious input from you on VS?
Well I don't want to do Ginny out of a gig, but always happy to help out. I
promise I will pay attention this time when Mike is doing his after dinner
thing<g>.
I presume to run another conference you'd have to get backing from MS or
Borland or someone like that. It wouldn't sort of work with numbers you had
last time. Those dam break even numbers....
I must admit your conferences are the sort of conferences I enjoy going to -
I sure don't want to see PowerPoint presentations for 3 days.
Graham
unknown
2003-11-27 18:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Sorrty, Geoff. Leave them in the nirvana/peace.
I also deserved (i hope:) right for some advertisement. My friend very soon
will release the new game (based on Ken Kesey's "One Flew...").
I convinced him add a new hero with the next key phrases:
"One made me mad" (sometimes; probably true).
"I move to Second" (very frequently; e.g. going to the PC, WC, etc).
"I'll shut up" (very seldom; in lucid moments).
"I'm an evangelist" (no comments).
And some (not adopted yet) for final scene: "gates love me", "ilias alive".

BTW, one new game in developing now. Let imagine...
Danish march. A flourish. Enter Ghost from the Past, with some two or three
Clowns...
<g>
unknown
2003-11-25 06:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

Despite all our critic, VO is a good development system (and 2.7 should be
very good). Work with it, experience will coming very soon.

Second, forgive last activity of some M$ advertisers here. Year is ending,
and one need present report with concrete numbers... Simply ignore that
noise.

Igor
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