Discussion:
Steve Ballmer no longer working for MS?
(too old to reply)
E®!k \\/!sser
2009-04-14 06:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World news,
wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.

But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.

What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer associated
with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the most
important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it is not
very good news I guess.


Erik
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-14 07:40:44 UTC
Permalink
This does not bode well.

I wonder what that means for all the VOPS folk that forked out all that
money....
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World news,
wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer associated
with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the most
important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it is not
very good news I guess.
Erik
E®!k \\/!sser
2009-04-14 08:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
This does not bode well.
I wonder what that means for all the VOPS folk that forked out all that
money....
Even if Brian is able to find a programmer as talented as Don, he will not
be able to generate enough money to pay him.
Don was, as far as I know, working much to hard for to little money, as he
would (also) get a percentage of the sales after xxx copies sold. And we all
know there are no more than 200-250 copies sold.
So where Robert recently announced the end of VO, I guess this will be the
end of vulcan as well.

Erik
Post by Geoff Schaller
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World
news,
wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer associated
with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the most
important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it is not
very good news I guess.
Erik
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-14 08:54:55 UTC
Permalink
200-250! That many? I am mildly surprised <g>.
Seems a little high but hey...

Yes, such might fund one developer for, mmm... 18 months I guess but it
doesn't leave much room for profit. Obviously this is where VOPS was
needed in order to fund ongoing maintenance and development. It is also
clearly obvious that VOPS was a shrinking community and certainly
wouldn't cover such costs so I guess the writing has been on the wall
for some time.

So I am not really surprised. Well, vale Vulcan...

Geoff
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Post by Geoff Schaller
This does not bode well.
I wonder what that means for all the VOPS folk that forked out all that
money....
Even if Brian is able to find a programmer as talented as Don, he will not
be able to generate enough money to pay him.
Don was, as far as I know, working much to hard for to little money, as he
would (also) get a percentage of the sales after xxx copies sold. And we all
know there are no more than 200-250 copies sold.
So where Robert recently announced the end of VO, I guess this will be the
end of vulcan as well.
Erik
John Parker
2009-04-14 10:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.

However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)

John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World news,
wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer associated
with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the
most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it is
not very good news I guess.
Erik
E®!k \\/!sser
2009-04-14 11:16:37 UTC
Permalink
John,

Please do not try to keep up appearences.
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
Fact 1:
Don Caton is no longer working for Grafx.

Fact 2:
Don Caton is no longer working on Vulcan
( I could prove both by publishing private email from Don)

So what are the speculations?
Post by John Parker
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
Well this is an opinion and a question.
Post by John Parker
, but if the most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project
quits, it is not very good news I guess.
Another opinion, no speculation at all.
Post by John Parker
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented,
I personnally doubt this is would be beside the truth, but ofcourse the
(other) members of the devteam can know better.

Erik
John Parker
2009-04-14 11:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Erik,
I did not deny that Don was no longer in the team and I am not trying to
keep up appearances.

Just wait and you will find out the truth of what is happening instead of
guessing at what is going on and what the future will be.

John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
John,
Please do not try to keep up appearences.
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
Don Caton is no longer working for Grafx.
Don Caton is no longer working on Vulcan
( I could prove both by publishing private email from Don)
So what are the speculations?
Post by John Parker
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
Well this is an opinion and a question.
Post by John Parker
, but if the most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project
quits, it is not very good news I guess.
Another opinion, no speculation at all.
Post by John Parker
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented,
I personnally doubt this is would be beside the truth, but ofcourse the
(other) members of the devteam can know better.
Erik
E®!k \\/!sser
2009-04-14 11:45:10 UTC
Permalink
John,

Playing wordgames?
Post by John Parker
I did not deny that Don was no longer in the team
No, you told us our speculations could not be further from the truth.
But as Ginny confirmed, there are no speculations on this.
Post by John Parker
Just wait and you will find out the truth of what is happening instead of
guessing at what is going on and what the future will be.
If you do not want/like us to guess, you better provide information in stead
of a "wait and see"

Erik
Post by John Parker
Erik,
I did not deny that Don was no longer in the team and I am not trying to
keep up appearances.
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
John,
Please do not try to keep up appearences.
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
Don Caton is no longer working for Grafx.
Don Caton is no longer working on Vulcan
( I could prove both by publishing private email from Don)
So what are the speculations?
Post by John Parker
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
Well this is an opinion and a question.
Post by John Parker
, but if the most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project
quits, it is not very good news I guess.
Another opinion, no speculation at all.
Post by John Parker
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented,
I personnally doubt this is would be beside the truth, but ofcourse the
(other) members of the devteam can know better.
Erik
John Parker
2009-04-14 11:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Get a life
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
John,
Playing wordgames?
Post by John Parker
I did not deny that Don was no longer in the team
No, you told us our speculations could not be further from the truth.
But as Ginny confirmed, there are no speculations on this.
Post by John Parker
Just wait and you will find out the truth of what is happening instead of
guessing at what is going on and what the future will be.
If you do not want/like us to guess, you better provide information in
stead of a "wait and see"
Erik
Post by John Parker
Erik,
I did not deny that Don was no longer in the team and I am not trying to
keep up appearances.
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
John,
Please do not try to keep up appearences.
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have
to wait for it :-)
Don Caton is no longer working for Grafx.
Don Caton is no longer working on Vulcan
( I could prove both by publishing private email from Don)
So what are the speculations?
Post by John Parker
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
Well this is an opinion and a question.
Post by John Parker
, but if the most important architect and developer of the Vulcan
project quits, it is not very good news I guess.
Another opinion, no speculation at all.
Post by John Parker
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented,
I personnally doubt this is would be beside the truth, but ofcourse the
(other) members of the devteam can know better.
Erik
Ginny Caughey
2009-04-14 11:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,

Nice to see you! Are you using Vulcan for production work?

It's not speculation that Don is no longer associated with Grafx and those
of us who have known him for many years will miss him, but perhaps you are
referring to something else? Obviously there were other good developers on
the Vulcan team: Robert, Chris, and Paul come to mind. Will you be there
too?
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World
news, wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer associated
with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the
most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it is
not very good news I guess.
Erik
John Parker
2009-04-14 11:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ginny,
Good to see you too.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Are you using Vulcan for production work?
Absolutely and it is going really well for me.
Post by Ginny Caughey
It's not speculation that Don is no longer associated with Grafx
Of course not, but when people start guessing at the future when they don't
know the facts it is speculation.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Obviously there were other good developers on the Vulcan team: Robert,
Chris, and Paul come to mind.
You meant "are" not "were" :-)
Post by Ginny Caughey
Will you be there too?
Of course. I have never left the team but my work is deep in the background.

John
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi John,
Nice to see you! Are you using Vulcan for production work?
It's not speculation that Don is no longer associated with Grafx and those
of us who have known him for many years will miss him, but perhaps you are
referring to something else? Obviously there were other good developers on
the Vulcan team: Robert, Chris, and Paul come to mind. Will you be there
too?
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World
news, wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer
associated with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the
most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it
is not very good news I guess.
Erik
Ginny Caughey
2009-04-14 12:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,

Yes, "are" instead of "were". ;-) Good to see you're still involved too.
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Post by John Parker
Hi Ginny,
Good to see you too.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Are you using Vulcan for production work?
Absolutely and it is going really well for me.
Post by Ginny Caughey
It's not speculation that Don is no longer associated with Grafx
Of course not, but when people start guessing at the future when they
don't know the facts it is speculation.
Post by Ginny Caughey
Obviously there were other good developers on the Vulcan team: Robert,
Chris, and Paul come to mind.
You meant "are" not "were" :-)
Post by Ginny Caughey
Will you be there too?
Of course. I have never left the team but my work is deep in the background.
John
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi John,
Nice to see you! Are you using Vulcan for production work?
It's not speculation that Don is no longer associated with Grafx and
those of us who have known him for many years will miss him, but perhaps
you are referring to something else? Obviously there were other good
developers on the Vulcan team: Robert, Chris, and Paul come to mind. Will
you be there too?
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World
news, wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer
associated with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the
most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it
is not very good news I guess.
Erik
Willie Moore
2009-04-14 12:34:37 UTC
Permalink
John,

I am doing some nice projects in Vulcan right now. I am taking my VO business objects and moving them over to Vulcan so I can use them from ASP.Net. Working very well and the customer is happy with the work. Probably the hardest part of the project for me is the rewriting of all of my reports using SQL Reporting Services. It was in the contract that all of the reports be redone so I am doing it on the platform that the customer specified (he is paying for the conversion so it really doesnt bother me that much <g> ).

Regards,
Willie
John Parker
2009-04-14 13:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Willie,
Conversion work is "nice work if you can get it" :-)

All of my work is "from scratch" at the moment so the transporter is no help
at all :-)

Talk to you soon,
John




"Willie Moore" <***@wmconsulting.com> wrote in message news:gs1vrh$l98$***@aioe.org...
John,

I am doing some nice projects in Vulcan right now. I am taking my VO
business objects and moving them over to Vulcan so I can use them from
ASP.Net. Working very well and the customer is happy with the work. Probably
the hardest part of the project for me is the rewriting of all of my reports
using SQL Reporting Services. It was in the contract that all of the reports
be redone so I am doing it on the platform that the customer specified (he
is paying for the conversion so it really doesnt bother me that much <g> ).

Regards,
Willie
Willie Moore
2009-04-14 13:30:29 UTC
Permalink
John,

All the transporter did for me was to create the solution to hold my business classes. Once of the nice things about VS is that I can have multible projects under a solution so I have my Vulcan business classes, then I have a fat GUI project for the administration, and a ASP.Net project for the web site. I am using the infragistics controls for both the local GUI and the web GUI so they have a consistant look. The updated intellisence with 157 makes it so much easier to switch between the different projects.

I was really hoping to get over to the UK for May but it isnt looking too good right now. Our company's union is working without a contract and they can strike at any time. Being that I am in management, I am required to work if they strike and cant make any travel plans until the contract is worked out. If they strike, I am required be be onsite withing 24 hours (at my expese if I am out of my home city). The joys of working in a large company. :)

Regards,
Willie
Post by John Parker
Hi Willie,
Conversion work is "nice work if you can get it" :-)
All of my work is "from scratch" at the moment so the transporter is no help
at all :-)
Talk to you soon,
John
John,
I am doing some nice projects in Vulcan right now. I am taking my VO
business objects and moving them over to Vulcan so I can use them from
ASP.Net. Working very well and the customer is happy with the work. Probably
the hardest part of the project for me is the rewriting of all of my reports
using SQL Reporting Services. It was in the contract that all of the reports
be redone so I am doing it on the platform that the customer specified (he
is paying for the conversion so it really doesnt bother me that much <g> ).
Regards,
Willie
Brian
2009-04-14 11:39:35 UTC
Permalink
We have made a few changes here at GrafXsoft and I think I should bring you
all up to date so that you know what is happening.

Robert van der Hulst will now be in charge of development of the core
services for Vulcan.NET. This takes advantage of Robert's vast experience
with the VO compiler, and continues his involvement with the low-level
operation of Vulcan.NET.

Don Caton has finished up his current responsibly with the Vulcan.NET
compiler, and will be taking a leave of absence from the team. We are highly
appreciative of his outstanding contributions to GrafX.

To cope with Robert's increased responsibilities we will be asking him to
dedicate an increased amount of time to the Vulcan.NET development and we
have every confidence that Robert will do an outstanding job as usual.

Chris Pygras will continue his activities with bringing enhancements to the
Visual Studio Editor for Visual Objects users with his VO Specific
Editors(VO menu editor in Build 157), as well as his role in support for
Vulcan.NET.

Paul Piko is currently working on a new WPF video for our website at
http://www.GoVulcan.NET, and has future plans to continue in Vulcan
Technical marketing and support for Vulcan.NET.

GrafX has released a new build 157 to VOPS. This build focuses on improved
usability, particularly for migrating VO users, but also includes bug fixes
and new features. Some of the things included with build 157 are: an
improved installer, a Visual Studio version of the VO Menu Editor, improved
Transporter, updated Intellisense and a host of bug fixes. (Please see the
157 read me for details)

We are sure that this team will continue to deliver an outstanding product
and, with your support, will continue to make Vulcan.NET the product that we
all want it to be.

Brian Feldman
Product Owner Vulcan.NET
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will just have to
wait for it :-)
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of the World
news, wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no longer associated
with Grafx so he does not work on the Vulcan team anymore.
This is important news, at least for the VO / Vulcan community, and I
wonder what this means for the continuation of the Vulcan project.
I am pretty sure all code he has written is well documented, but if the
most important architect and developer of the Vulcan project quits, it is
not very good news I guess.
Erik
Phil Mermod
2009-04-14 12:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Brian for your post because the blablabla's above are
really useless.
--
Phil Mermod
Crystal Reports Library for Visual Objects
http://www.pkl.ch/dev/
Post by Brian
We have made a few changes here at GrafXsoft and I think I
should bring you all up to date so that you know what is
happening.
Robert van der Hulst will now be in charge of development of
the core services for Vulcan.NET. This takes advantage of
Robert's vast experience with the VO compiler, and continues
his involvement with the low-level operation of Vulcan.NET.
Don Caton has finished up his current responsibly with the
Vulcan.NET compiler, and will be taking a leave of absence
from the team. We are highly appreciative of his outstanding
contributions to GrafX.
To cope with Robert's increased responsibilities we will be
asking him to dedicate an increased amount of time to the
Vulcan.NET development and we have every confidence that
Robert will do an outstanding job as usual.
Chris Pygras will continue his activities with bringing
enhancements to the Visual Studio Editor for Visual Objects
users with his VO Specific Editors(VO menu editor in Build
157), as well as his role in support for Vulcan.NET.
Paul Piko is currently working on a new WPF video for our
website at http://www.GoVulcan.NET, and has future plans to
continue in Vulcan Technical marketing and support for
Vulcan.NET.
GrafX has released a new build 157 to VOPS. This build focuses
on improved usability, particularly for migrating VO users,
but also includes bug fixes and new features. Some of the
things included with build 157 are: an improved installer, a
Visual Studio version of the VO Menu Editor, improved
Transporter, updated Intellisense and a host of bug fixes.
(Please see the 157 read me for details)
We are sure that this team will continue to deliver an
outstanding product and, with your support, will continue to
make Vulcan.NET the product that we all want it to be.
Brian Feldman
Product Owner Vulcan.NET
Post by John Parker
Sorry guys but your speculations could not be further from
the truth.
However, it is not my place to release the news so you will
just have to wait for it :-)
John
Post by E®!k \\/!sser
Now that would be breaking news and fill the headlines of
the World news, wouldn't it.
As far as I know <g> it is not true.
But what is true, is that Don Caton ended working for
Grafx.
What is the impact of Don Caton's quitting? Don is no
longer associated with Grafx so he does not work on the
Vulcan team anymore. This is important news, at least
for the VO / Vulcan community, and I wonder what this
means for the continuation of the Vulcan project. I am
pretty sure all code he has written is well documented,
but if the most important architect and developer of the
Vulcan project quits, it is not very good news I guess.
Erik
doncaton@teranews.com
2009-04-14 13:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Erik and All:

Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.

Robert is still working for Grafx. VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.

It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan. Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.

But nobody is irreplaceable. Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.

--
Don
Willie Moore
2009-04-14 14:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Don,

Good luck!!

Regards,
Willie
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx. VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan. Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable. Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Johan Nel
2009-04-14 14:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Don,

Good luck for the future, you sure will be missed, hope we still see you
lurking around once in a while.

Take care,

Johan Nel
Pretoria, South Africa.
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx. VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan. Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable. Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Rene J. Pajaron
2009-04-16 04:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Don,

I wish I could hire you!!!

If you don't me asking - are you still involve on compiler writing?
Some say, writing compilers is bit rocket-science sort of
programming. Others lucky fellow wrote an OS either from scratch or
by "stealing" others code. It reminds me of Linus Torvalds and Dave
Cutler - not accusing them of stealing anyone's code.

Anyway, I believe software development specially on business
application - must be multi-programmers and source-code must self
documenting or documented properly.

This reminds me my company - the day me working alone is gone.

Clipper really starts this cottage-industry. Now this is not
advisable to contract a programmer fresh from college. You bet, he/she
will be gone before the project ends (lucky if it ends successfully).

Good luck to you Don. You are most eloquent contributor on this NG
and once-upon-a-time at VOPS reading your post with great awe. You
have such great command of the Language (English this time) that you
can explain exotic techniques to 4 year old like me <g>

Rene
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx.  VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan.  Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable.  Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-16 22:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Goodness me!

Hose it down Rene or you will poke your eye out with it <g>.
Post by Johan Nel
Hi Don,
I wish I could hire you!!!
If you don't me asking - are you still involve on compiler writing?
Some say, writing compilers is bit rocket-science sort of
programming. Others lucky fellow wrote an OS either from scratch or
by "stealing" others code. It reminds me of Linus Torvalds and Dave
Cutler - not accusing them of stealing anyone's code.
Anyway, I believe software development specially on business
application - must be multi-programmers and source-code must self
documenting or documented properly.
This reminds me my company - the day me working alone is gone.
Clipper really starts this cottage-industry. Now this is not
advisable to contract a programmer fresh from college. You bet, he/she
will be gone before the project ends (lucky if it ends successfully).
Good luck to you Don. You are most eloquent contributor on this NG
and once-upon-a-time at VOPS reading your post with great awe. You
have such great command of the Language (English this time) that you
can explain exotic techniques to 4 year old like me <g>
Rene
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx. VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan. Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable. Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Rene J. Pajaron
2009-04-17 00:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,

What?

Anyway, don't you think you it is awe inspiring to admire someone you
barely know?

On face value perhaps until I meet the man - and hose down myself with
cold beer and die....

I will miss this guy nonetheless...

As said nobody is irreplaceable - that being echoed, I feel this too
with my business partners - I put a fear on them with the following
question "What if I hit a tree while driving? Who gonna take over my
code?" Now, they considering a complete team this year, we have
technical support team now, but I am alone on the programming task.
One guy at a time, till all covered. I don't like part time
programmer. I want full-time ass - willing to work even Good Friday!!!
or worse even Christmas!!!

So, may I ask you, how many of you in your team doing the code? I mean
- writing the code? 3? I saw that on your web site. My wife is
working for me now - not as a programmer but my business manager. I
need additional ass for web development and other on C# or VB for new
set of applications. I will not teach VO or Vulcan - that is reserved
for me alone.

Rene


On Apr 17, 6:48 am, "Geoff Schaller"
Post by Geoff Schaller
Goodness me!
Hose it down Rene or you will poke your eye out with it <g>.
Post by Johan Nel
Hi Don,
I wish I could hire you!!!
If you don't me asking - are you still involve on compiler writing?
Some say, writing compilers is bit rocket-science sort of
programming.  Others lucky fellow wrote an OS either from scratch or
by "stealing" others code.  It reminds me of Linus Torvalds and Dave
Cutler - not accusing them of stealing anyone's code.
Anyway, I believe software development specially on business
application - must be multi-programmers and source-code must self
documenting or documented properly.
This reminds me my company - the day me working alone is gone.
Clipper really starts this cottage-industry.  Now this is not
advisable to contract a programmer fresh from college. You bet, he/she
will be gone before the project ends (lucky if it ends successfully).
Good luck to you Don.  You are most eloquent contributor on this NG
and once-upon-a-time at VOPS reading your post with great awe.  You
have such great command of the Language (English this time) that you
can explain exotic techniques to 4 year old like me <g>
Rene
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx.  VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan.  Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable.  Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-17 02:00:14 UTC
Permalink
I just think your praise is a little over the top <g>.

Despite what you think, it isn't that hard to build compilers or similar
software. Perhaps you are underplaying your own skills? Different types
of things come easier to different types of people or else we would all
be doing the exact same thing as everyone else.

How many write code here? 3 - my website is more out of date than I am
<g>. But then I also work closely with two other contractors and the
situation is as fluid as it needs to be.
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
Geoff,
What?
Anyway, don't you think you it is awe inspiring to admire someone you
barely know?
On face value perhaps until I meet the man - and hose down myself with
cold beer and die....
I will miss this guy nonetheless...
As said nobody is irreplaceable - that being echoed, I feel this too
with my business partners - I put a fear on them with the following
question "What if I hit a tree while driving? Who gonna take over my
code?" Now, they considering a complete team this year, we have
technical support team now, but I am alone on the programming task.
One guy at a time, till all covered. I don't like part time
programmer. I want full-time ass - willing to work even Good Friday!!!
or worse even Christmas!!!
So, may I ask you, how many of you in your team doing the code? I mean
- writing the code? 3? I saw that on your web site. My wife is
working for me now - not as a programmer but my business manager. I
need additional ass for web development and other on C# or VB for new
set of applications. I will not teach VO or Vulcan - that is reserved
for me alone.
Rene
On Apr 17, 6:48 am, "Geoff Schaller"
Post by Geoff Schaller
Goodness me!
Hose it down Rene or you will poke your eye out with it <g>.
Post by Johan Nel
Hi Don,
I wish I could hire you!!!
If you don't me asking - are you still involve on compiler writing?
Some say, writing compilers is bit rocket-science sort of
programming. Others lucky fellow wrote an OS either from scratch or
by "stealing" others code. It reminds me of Linus Torvalds and Dave
Cutler - not accusing them of stealing anyone's code.
Anyway, I believe software development specially on business
application - must be multi-programmers and source-code must self
documenting or documented properly.
This reminds me my company - the day me working alone is gone.
Clipper really starts this cottage-industry. Now this is not
advisable to contract a programmer fresh from college. You bet, he/she
will be gone before the project ends (lucky if it ends successfully).
Good luck to you Don. You are most eloquent contributor on this NG
and once-upon-a-time at VOPS reading your post with great awe. You
have such great command of the Language (English this time) that you
can explain exotic techniques to 4 year old like me <g>
Rene
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx. VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan. Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable. Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Rene J. Pajaron
2009-04-17 07:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Geoff,
Post by Geoff Schaller
I just think your praise is a little over the top <g>.
You don't get that kind of praise from me? <g> That's the way I am.
And btw thanks for SQLMaster - I will try it out with MySQL and
PostgreSQL this weekend. Actually I will be trying out 3 of them (SQL
Server 2008 Express, MySQL & PostgreSQL). Let us see what my partners
will eventually like. Money comes in trickles this days. What would my
business partners would say if our program will increase in deployment
cost for average users by 3 to 5 times? No one even ordered ADS even
I demoed it to largest clients because cost is too prohibitive. It is
really frustrating to live this kind of market. Well, I have few
competitors - but majority of our clients are cost-sensitive.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Despite what you think, it isn't that hard to build compilers or similar
software. Perhaps you are underplaying your own skills? Different types
of things come easier to different types of people or else we would all
be doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
I am basically trained as business application developer. My college
is well spent on Accountancy and Computer Science (business
curriculum).
I did not take 2 subjects that deals with rocket science a.k.a
"Compiler Design", perhaps I see my limitations. Or what my board
mates did say - there is no money on virus writing. I have known a
guy who mastered the Assembly language and eventually wrote a vicious
virus ever created in our country in the early 90's. That guy said
"No money on Assembly, you better learned Clipper". That is the
start. I learn Clipper by borrowing code as sample (steal?) from
others and ..... Just one book, and I did it myself and alone
(literally). I know how you get started <g>.
Post by Geoff Schaller
How many write code here? 3 - my website is more out of date than I am
<g>. But then I also work closely with two other contractors and the
situation is as fluid as it needs to be.
You able to handle that traffic? Right now, we have 60+ clients all
over Mindanao and some in Luzon (Manila). I feel congested here. I
need three asses to kick, you know. We have cheap labor, that
explains too few programmers (good one and reliable) available here.
They all gone to call centers in Manila. I have one resign 2 years
ago to become Cisco tech support. This explains my move to VS this
year. I need to entice newbie into our world.

We do not have website. I do not need at this moment. I see your
site behave strange when I try to download. It keep warn me to save
something. I did not visit it lately. But I do have friendster
account <g>.

So I guess, you work with other guys on other contracting work. Are
they connected to your clients or another group of guys? I am asking
this because, I need to see how you able pull it through and yet you
are in this NG seems nothing else do but watching messages <g>. I do
have time now, because I am researching and preparing mode. Moment I
jump into VO work, you will never see any post from me. But seem I go
back in this NG to get in touch with you guys.


Rene



On Apr 17, 10:00 am, "Geoff Schaller"
Post by Geoff Schaller
I just think your praise is a little over the top <g>.
Despite what you think, it isn't that hard to build compilers or similar
software. Perhaps you are underplaying your own skills? Different types
of things come easier to different types of people or else we would all
be doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
How many write code here? 3 - my website is more out of date than I am
<g>. But then I also work closely with two other contractors and the
situation is as fluid as it needs to be.
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
Geoff,
What?
Anyway, don't you think you it is awe inspiring to admire someone you
barely know?
On face value perhaps until I meet the man - and hose down myself with
cold beer and die....
I will miss this guy nonetheless...
As said nobody is irreplaceable - that being echoed, I feel this too
with my business partners - I put a fear on them with the following
question "What if I hit a tree while driving? Who gonna take over my
code?"  Now, they considering a complete team this year, we have
technical support team now, but I am alone on the programming task.
One guy at a time, till all covered.  I don't like part time
programmer. I want full-time ass - willing to work even Good Friday!!!
or worse even Christmas!!!
So, may I ask you, how many of you in your team doing the code? I mean
- writing the code? 3? I saw that on your web site.  My wife is
working for me now - not as a programmer but my business manager. I
need additional ass for web development and other on C# or VB for new
set of applications.  I will not teach VO or Vulcan - that is reserved
for me alone.
Rene
On Apr 17, 6:48 am, "Geoff Schaller"
Post by Geoff Schaller
Goodness me!
Hose it down Rene or you will poke your eye out with it <g>.
Post by Johan Nel
Hi Don,
I wish I could hire you!!!
If you don't me asking - are you still involve on compiler writing?
Some say, writing compilers is bit rocket-science sort of
programming.  Others lucky fellow wrote an OS either from scratch or
by "stealing" others code.  It reminds me of Linus Torvalds and Dave
Cutler - not accusing them of stealing anyone's code.
Anyway, I believe software development specially on business
application - must be multi-programmers and source-code must self
documenting or documented properly.
This reminds me my company - the day me working alone is gone.
Clipper really starts this cottage-industry.  Now this is not
advisable to contract a programmer fresh from college. You bet, he/she
will be gone before the project ends (lucky if it ends successfully).
Good luck to you Don.  You are most eloquent contributor on this NG
and once-upon-a-time at VOPS reading your post with great awe.  You
have such great command of the Language (English this time) that you
can explain exotic techniques to 4 year old like me <g>
Rene
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx.  VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan.  Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable.  Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-17 08:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Rene,
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
You don't get that kind of praise from me? <g> That's the way I am.
I'm not looking for it but you did dish it out for Don and I suspect it
made him cringe as much as it did me <g>
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
And btw thanks for SQLMaster - I will try it out with MySQL and
PostgreSQL this weekend. Actually I will be trying out 3 of them (SQL
Don't bother. I have not written the OLEDB provider backbone for either
of them. MySQL doesn't supply an adequate OLEDB provider and neither of
the are sufficiently sophisticated in their T-SQL implementation to
warrant it. Of course the big issue is that they just aren't used by
enough people to justify the development effort.

You will need to evaluate those tools from their own GUI products.
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
cost for average users by 3 to 5 times? No one even ordered ADS even
I demoed it to largest clients because cost is too prohibitive. It is
really frustrating to live this kind of market. Well, I have few
competitors - but majority of our clients are cost-sensitive.
That is one of the disappointments about ADS. It is very expensive. Not
as expensive as Oracle or DB2 but certainly more expensive than MS. And
here we are talking about the genuine SQL engine, not the DBF version.
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
So I guess, you work with other guys on other contracting work. Are
they connected to your clients or another group of guys? I am asking
this because, I need to see how you able pull it through and yet you
No, we work collaboratively. If I have a job that needs to be completed
that takes, say 500 hrs, I can do internally and take 5 weeks or I can
engage two contractors and so complete the work in under 3 weeks.
Depends on the client and it depends on what work follows in behind.
Sometimes we share work and sometimes we train collaboratively. It all
depends.


Cheers,

Geoff
Joachim Duerr (ADS)
2009-04-17 14:11:38 UTC
Permalink
And here we are talking about the genuine SQL engine, not the DBF
version.
hmmm...working for over nine years now for ADS...as support lead,
consultant, trainer, evangelist, ... and I never experienced that there
are two versions of ADS - a SQL engine and a DBF version. I always
thought this is combined in one product.

About the price: talk to the sales rep and he'll find a pricing model
that will fit to the application and customers. We - the Europ. ADS
team - never lost a deal due to pricing issues.
--
Joachim Duerr
Advantage Presales
check out my new ADS book on http://www.jd-engineering.de/adsbuch
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-18 07:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Joachim.
Post by Joachim Duerr (ADS)
hmmm...working for over nine years now for ADS...as support lead,
consultant, trainer, evangelist, ... and I never experienced that there
are two versions of ADS - a SQL engine and a DBF version. I always
thought this is combined in one product.
Really? So all ADS systems are based on DBFs? Hmmm... that's a
significant downer. I thought you had a full blown SQL engine based on a
single file store. Not so?
Post by Joachim Duerr (ADS)
About the price: talk to the sales rep and he'll find a pricing model
that will fit to the application and customers. We - the Europ. ADS
team - never lost a deal due to pricing issues.
ADS is significantly dearer for a client/server setup than MS SQL Server
Standard. We helped Harvey Norman buy ADS and implement it across 280
stores almost 2 years back so we do have some experience on this. SQL
Server would have been substantially cheaper but the client wanted to
retain their DBFs so ADS was the only solution appropriate to get them
out of their index corruption and management problems.

As I understand it, the pricing comparison ratio is still roughly the
same.

Geoff
richard.townsendrose
2009-04-18 10:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Geoff

so you were screwed on price ...

ADS is significantly cheaper that MS products. and tremendously
cheaper on operations and maintenance... if ads was grief then i would
have gone away from it. i like a simple easy life. MS is NOT that.
easy to install easy to configure and zero hours on operations. thats
me PROFIT. the idea of annual mainteance charges is to keep the cash,
have a good product which doesn't require any effort to support ...

and with a data dictioanry ADT tables are bound together ... and if
your single file goes belly up .. then thats it. whilst dbf's [aka
adt's] give you the ability to recover.

can you imagine using a hex editor to recover some stuff ....
impossible.

richard
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-19 00:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Interesting:

Ok, let's go retail. I'll give you the scenario: a company has 100
sites. Each site has 50 users. Each site needs MS SQL Server 2008 Work
Group Edition (US 850) and 45 more CALs at US 145 each. What is the ADS
equivalent for its full SQL version, not the DBF version.

But of course this belies the fact that most sites probably already have
MS SQL Server and may only need additional cals. Further, for a company
of this scale they would be writing an enterprise agreement on OB or OV
which would gain them quite a substantial discount on these prices.

Now, let's turn to installation. It's a snap. Would you like some
scripts so that you can run unattended installs with absolutely no user
intervention? Including setting the server rights, sa password, setting
default data directories and creating the server account users?

You need to freshen up on these things.

Geoff
Post by richard.townsendrose
Geoff
so you were screwed on price ...
ADS is significantly cheaper that MS products. and tremendously
cheaper on operations and maintenance... if ads was grief then i would
have gone away from it. i like a simple easy life. MS is NOT that.
easy to install easy to configure and zero hours on operations. thats
me PROFIT. the idea of annual mainteance charges is to keep the cash,
have a good product which doesn't require any effort to support ...
and with a data dictioanry ADT tables are bound together ... and if
your single file goes belly up .. then thats it. whilst dbf's [aka
adt's] give you the ability to recover.
can you imagine using a hex editor to recover some stuff ....
impossible.
richard
Joachim Duerr (ADS)
2009-04-20 07:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
Ok, let's go retail. I'll give you the scenario: a company has 100
sites. Each site has 50 users. Each site needs MS SQL Server 2008
Work Group Edition (US 850) and 45 more CALs at US 145 each.
850+(45*145)=$7375 right?
Post by Geoff Schaller
What is
the ADS equivalent for its full SQL version, not the DBF version.
Hi - there'sd no 'DBF VERSION' and 'FULL BLOWN SQL VERSION' - There's a
royalty free local server (up to 5 concurrent users) and a commercial
client/server edition. BOTH can work with DBFs (and ADTs) and BOTH do
understand SQL. They're interchangeable in terms of programming. The
only functional differences: Local Server doesn't support transactions
(hey - it's a local engine without single point of control),
replication, hot backup and clustering (well, you can cluster the file
server).
NO ADS VERSION EVER SAVED THE DATA IN ONLY ONE FILE - and - WHY IS ONLY
A 'ONE FILE' DATABASE A SQL DATABASE? THE STORAGE HAS ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY OF ACCESSING IT.

So, about the pricing: based on US-$ a 50 user version (not named user
as µ$ SQL Server!) costs $3699.
From what I've learned in school this looks roughly like half the price
of the 'cheaper than all' MS prices. And deploying to 100 end customers
you'll getting a discount for sure.

So, please, Geoff, tell us how you calculate "down under" that ADS is
more expensive than MS SQL.
Post by Geoff Schaller
But of course this belies the fact that most sites probably already
have MS SQL Server and may only need additional cals. Further, for a
company of this scale they would be writing an enterprise agreement
on OB or OV which would gain them quite a substantial discount on
these prices.
and with ADS consider that not every user needs it's license - it's
based on concurrent users, not seats! So a 25 user version might be
enough for half of the installations.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Now, let's turn to installation. It's a snap. Would you like some
scripts so that you can run unattended installs with absolutely no
user intervention? Including setting the server rights, sa password,
setting default data directories and creating the server account
users?
ADS silent install: download size around 10MB, installation completed
in less than 30 seconds.
Post by Geoff Schaller
You need to freshen up on these things.
no, YOU need to freshen up.

btw: I don't want to offend you, but I can't keep my hands in my
pockets when reading such a bullshit. It's your choice to use MS SQL,
but if you don't know any details on ADS, just don't sell lies about it
as the truth.
--
Joachim Duerr
Advantage Presales
check out my new ADS book on http://www.jd-engineering.de/adsbuch
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-20 08:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Joachim,

Ok, you are half right, except that the installation ADS had us install
here was quite a bit more expensive - but it is too late to argue that
one. My main point was that if most sites already had MS SQL Server so
the incremental cost would be a lot lower. So if all this was just an
exercise to stabilise indexes prior to going genuine SQL then it is all
a huge waste of money.

But you have some website updating to do because this is not how I read
the sales blurb and it was not how it was sold to Harvey Norman.

The other point was that if there isn't a genuine client/server product
that revolves around a 'single' file like Oracle/DB2 or MS then ADS
isn't in the picture. One of the main points of going SQL is to get past
the concept of one table per database and get into file group management
properly.

Cheers,

Geoff
Post by Joachim Duerr (ADS)
Post by Geoff Schaller
Ok, let's go retail. I'll give you the scenario: a company has 100
sites. Each site has 50 users. Each site needs MS SQL Server 2008
Work Group Edition (US 850) and 45 more CALs at US 145 each.
850+(45*145)=$7375 right?
Post by Geoff Schaller
What is
the ADS equivalent for its full SQL version, not the DBF version.
Hi - there'sd no 'DBF VERSION' and 'FULL BLOWN SQL VERSION' - There's a
royalty free local server (up to 5 concurrent users) and a commercial
client/server edition. BOTH can work with DBFs (and ADTs) and BOTH do
understand SQL. They're interchangeable in terms of programming. The
only functional differences: Local Server doesn't support transactions
(hey - it's a local engine without single point of control),
replication, hot backup and clustering (well, you can cluster the file
server).
NO ADS VERSION EVER SAVED THE DATA IN ONLY ONE FILE - and - WHY IS ONLY
A 'ONE FILE' DATABASE A SQL DATABASE? THE STORAGE HAS ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY OF ACCESSING IT.
So, about the pricing: based on US-$ a 50 user version (not named user
as µ$ SQL Server!) costs $3699.
From what I've learned in school this looks roughly like half the price
of the 'cheaper than all' MS prices. And deploying to 100 end customers
you'll getting a discount for sure.
So, please, Geoff, tell us how you calculate "down under" that ADS is
more expensive than MS SQL.
Post by Geoff Schaller
But of course this belies the fact that most sites probably already
have MS SQL Server and may only need additional cals. Further, for a
company of this scale they would be writing an enterprise agreement
on OB or OV which would gain them quite a substantial discount on
these prices.
and with ADS consider that not every user needs it's license - it's
based on concurrent users, not seats! So a 25 user version might be
enough for half of the installations.
Post by Geoff Schaller
Now, let's turn to installation. It's a snap. Would you like some
scripts so that you can run unattended installs with absolutely no
user intervention? Including setting the server rights, sa password,
setting default data directories and creating the server account
users?
ADS silent install: download size around 10MB, installation completed
in less than 30 seconds.
Post by Geoff Schaller
You need to freshen up on these things.
no, YOU need to freshen up.
btw: I don't want to offend you, but I can't keep my hands in my
pockets when reading such a bullshit. It's your choice to use MS SQL,
but if you don't know any details on ADS, just don't sell lies about it
as the truth.
--
Joachim Duerr
Advantage Presales
check out my new ADS book on http://www.jd-engineering.de/adsbuch
Joachim Duerr (ADS)
2009-04-20 13:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
The other point was that if there isn't a genuine client/server
product that revolves around a 'single' file like Oracle/DB2 or MS
then ADS isn't in the picture. One of the main points of going SQL is
to get past the concept of one table per database and get into file
group management properly.
Client/Server - again - has nothing to do with the storage behind! Even
Oracle uses multiple files.
Post by Geoff Schaller
When someone says 'SQL database', most people accept that this
refers to Oracle, Sybase, MS, DB2, MySQL or whatever.
The preferred storage engine for MySQL is MyISAM. They're more DBF and
ADS like than MS SQL and Oracle. So this does not fit at all into your
definition;)
--
Joachim Duerr
Advantage Presales
check out my new ADS book on http://www.jd-engineering.de/adsbuch
Paul D B
2009-04-21 07:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Duerr (ADS)
and with ADS consider that not every user needs it's license - it's
based on concurrent users, not seats! So a 25 user version might be
enough for half of the installations.
I can confirm this. I have +/- 20 users but only a 10 user ADS license and
until now, there have never been more than 10 concurrent users of the
applications.
I'd wish other software manufacturers (read "MS") would have the same
licensing model!
--
Paul
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-21 09:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Paul,
Post by Paul D B
I'd wish other software manufacturers (read "MS") would have the same
licensing model!
But they do.

The domain is about the only 'strict' license environment. For example,
let us take a site with 50 PCs and 300 users (eg shift users). In that
instance you would use device cals so you only need 50 cals and some
maybe for printers. Conversely, you have 100 workstations (50 PCs, 30
laptops for 30 of the users, 20 'auxiliary' PCs) but only 30 users, you
would go for user cals and get 30. But the domain cal is the cheap cal.

Then come up to TS, SharePoint or SQL Server and you only buy the number
of CALs you expect for concurrent use. No more, sometimes less. So you
see, it is the same licensing model.

Geoff
Ginny Caughey
2009-04-21 11:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Geoff,

Microsoft also offers per-processor licensing, which could make a lot of
sense when there are many users but not a lot of concurrent use.
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Post by Geoff Schaller
Paul,
Post by Paul D B
I'd wish other software manufacturers (read "MS") would have the same
licensing model!
But they do.
The domain is about the only 'strict' license environment. For example,
let us take a site with 50 PCs and 300 users (eg shift users). In that
instance you would use device cals so you only need 50 cals and some maybe
for printers. Conversely, you have 100 workstations (50 PCs, 30 laptops
for 30 of the users, 20 'auxiliary' PCs) but only 30 users, you would go
for user cals and get 30. But the domain cal is the cheap cal.
Then come up to TS, SharePoint or SQL Server and you only buy the number
of CALs you expect for concurrent use. No more, sometimes less. So you
see, it is the same licensing model.
Geoff
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-21 22:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Sure. And SP has a web licence too.

But in all truth, their licensing options and sales data are a
nightmare. I still haven't found a distributor who can clearly explain
the whole OL and SA business clearly. Throw MS financing on top (which
is quite a nice option, mind you). When you use OB and when to use OV
and the fact that SA changes between the two (from 2 years to 3) - it is
a nightmare trying to explain this to customers.

Geoff
Post by Ginny Caughey
Hi Geoff,
Microsoft also offers per-processor licensing, which could make a lot of
sense when there are many users but not a lot of concurrent use.
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Paul D B
2009-04-22 07:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
Paul,
Post by Paul D B
I'd wish other software manufacturers (read "MS") would have the same
licensing model!
But they do.
The domain is about the only 'strict' license environment. For
example, let us take a site with 50 PCs and 300 users (eg shift
users). In that instance you would use device cals so you only need
50 cals and some maybe for printers. Conversely, you have 100
workstations (50 PCs, 30 laptops for 30 of the users, 20 'auxiliary'
PCs) but only 30 users, you would go for user cals and get 30. But
the domain cal is the cheap cal.
Then come up to TS, SharePoint or SQL Server and you only buy the
number of CALs you expect for concurrent use. No more, sometimes
less. So you see, it is the same licensing model.
Geoff
Geoff,

Windows Server (I guess that's what you call the domain cal ?) licensing:
in the Per User model, it is not about concurrent users: you need a CAL for
EVERY user on your network. So 20 users means 20 CALs.

Exchange Server: exactly the same: you need a CAL for EVERY user accessing
the exchange server.

SQL server: the same! Check this:
http://www.microsoft.com/sqlserver/2008/en/us/licensing-faq.aspx


In neither of the products they talk about concurrent or simultaneous users.
They clearly say that you need a CAL for *each* user (or device, depending
on the chosen model).


PS: The other model (per device) is only interesting for companies with more
users than PC's but in my case it is not like that: each user has his own
PC.
--
Paul
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-22 08:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Paul,

Funnily enough, that is EXACTLY what I said. If you have more PCs than
users (quite common - think laptops plus desktops) then the user is the
base. In control or help desk centres it is the reverse. Device cals are
more relevant.

Exchange 2007 requires a cal per mail box (basically) but when you use
SBS or EBS then the cal is combined.

But I kind of think this is fair enough, don't you? You need mail boxes,
rights and resources so a per user/device access license makes sense.
How do you license your software? Perhaps you just charge per site (we
do) but then we have a maintenance plan. On other tools we charge per
installation. Lots of options.

My reference was to the then point of other discussions: MS SQL Server,
MS Terminal Server and MS SharePoint. In these cases you only buy enough
cals to cover concurrent usage. In fact with MS SQL Server you would be
smart to create one login for the application so regardless of how many
users use the application, it would only need one CAL.

So I think MS has got the mix right.

Geoff
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
Post by Geoff Schaller
Paul,
Post by Paul D B
I'd wish other software manufacturers (read "MS") would have the same
licensing model!
But they do.
The domain is about the only 'strict' license environment. For
example, let us take a site with 50 PCs and 300 users (eg shift
users). In that instance you would use device cals so you only need
50 cals and some maybe for printers. Conversely, you have 100
workstations (50 PCs, 30 laptops for 30 of the users, 20 'auxiliary'
PCs) but only 30 users, you would go for user cals and get 30. But
the domain cal is the cheap cal.
Then come up to TS, SharePoint or SQL Server and you only buy the
number of CALs you expect for concurrent use. No more, sometimes
less. So you see, it is the same licensing model.
Geoff
Geoff,
in the Per User model, it is not about concurrent users: you need a CAL for
EVERY user on your network. So 20 users means 20 CALs.
Exchange Server: exactly the same: you need a CAL for EVERY user accessing
the exchange server.
http://www.microsoft.com/sqlserver/2008/en/us/licensing-faq.aspx
In neither of the products they talk about concurrent or simultaneous users.
They clearly say that you need a CAL for *each* user (or device, depending
on the chosen model).
PS: The other model (per device) is only interesting for companies with more
users than PC's but in my case it is not like that: each user has his own
PC.
--
Paul
Joachim Duerr (ADS)
2009-04-20 07:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff Schaller
Really? So all ADS systems are based on DBFs? Hmmm... that's a
significant downer. I thought you had a full blown SQL engine based
on a single file store. Not so?
no. but storage and access is independant. SQL is a query language, not
the file format. It never was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL
Post by Geoff Schaller
ADS is significantly dearer for a client/server setup than MS SQL
Server Standard. We helped Harvey Norman buy ADS and implement it
across 280 stores almost 2 years back so we do have some experience
on this. SQL Server would have been substantially cheaper but the
client wanted to retain their DBFs so ADS was the only solution
appropriate to get them out of their index corruption and management
problems.
As I understand it, the pricing comparison ratio is still roughly the
same.
see my other post.
--
Joachim Duerr
Advantage Presales
check out my new ADS book on http://www.jd-engineering.de/adsbuch
Geoff Schaller
2009-04-20 08:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Joachim,
Post by Joachim Duerr (ADS)
no. but storage and access is independant. SQL is a query language, not
the file format. It never was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL
Play semantics all you like: the term 'SQL' is used universally to refer
to most RDBMS systems even though we all know it technically only refers
to the query language.

When someone says 'SQL database', most people accept that this refers to
Oracle, Sybase, MS, DB2, MySQL or whatever.

Geoff
doncaton@teranews.com
2009-04-17 04:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
If you don't me asking - are you still involve on compiler writing?
No, I haven't been able to find any work like that so far. If you know
anyone who needs a compiler written, feel free to give them my email
address <g>.
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
Some say, writing compilers is bit rocket-science sort of
programming. Others lucky fellow wrote an OS either from scratch or
by "stealing" others code. It reminds me of Linus Torvalds and Dave
Cutler - not accusing them of stealing anyone's code.
I wouldn't say it's rocket science, but it's certainly a lot different
than the kind of application programming that most of us have done
(myself included). You have to deal with the underlying platform at a
level that most people never have to go near, and that makes it a lot
more challenging because there's not nearly the amount of information
available for that sort of thing as there is for high level application
programming. It certainly was the most interesting and challenging
thing I've ever worked on and I'll miss that part of it, but life goes
on.
Post by Rene J. Pajaron
Anyway, I believe software development specially on business
application - must be multi-programmers and source-code must self
documenting or documented properly.
This reminds me my company - the day me working alone is gone.
Clipper really starts this cottage-industry. Now this is not
advisable to contract a programmer fresh from college. You bet, he/she
will be gone before the project ends (lucky if it ends successfully).
Good luck to you Don. You are most eloquent contributor on this NG
and once-upon-a-time at VOPS reading your post with great awe. You
have such great command of the Language (English this time) that you
can explain exotic techniques to 4 year old like me <g>
Thank you for your kind words, it's really appreciated.

--
Don
Lars Broberg
2009-04-17 15:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Don,
Good luck in the future!
Regards
----
Lars Broberg
Elbe-Data AB
lars at elbe-data dot se
Post by ***@teranews.com
Yes, my association with Grafx has come to an end.
Robert is still working for Grafx. VO is what it is today because of
Robert's hard work, and I'm sure anyone who has been using VO for a long
time will agree that VO is better than it ever was.
It was both a pleasure and a privilege to work with someone of Robert's
caliber, and I'm sure he will do great things with Vulcan. Same goes
for Chris and Paul; I will miss working with all of them.
But nobody is irreplaceable. Things change and life goes on and I wish
everyone well.
--
Don
Sherlock
2009-04-23 12:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Don, All

I use Vo2.8 VOPS latest build everyday for all my applicaiotn and for
a long time stuck with one major app using Vo2.5b3. I can tell you
VO2.8 is really good, especially the editot and I only last week found
the real issue with the old app. It ended up being 3 lines of old VO
code, buried in a libary that needed to be removed and replace with
another line that fixed a control/window resizing issue... outside of
that a few hours and it was all working.

The latest VO2.8 is well documented, well supported, new builds and
regular fixes and Rober tis right on the ball.

Have not jumped to DOTNET and the one developer who did has gone back
to Win32API programming. There are no plans for DOTNET at this time..
but in time might give it a shot.

A lot depends on Windows 7 revitilising the market as the web
application continue to grow in the office/corporate space. Vista just
did not inspire anybody and I thinks Windows 7 will have a good
impact.

In regards to DON wow he was there for it all and what a journey.
Creating something from nothing and working hand in hand with Robert/
Paul/Chris in taking an old VO2.5 with a zillion compile time errors
and tightening it up and getting it to export to .NET as Vulcan.
Imagine some of the decisions that were made and the contribution by
all.

Personally I think the VOPS model is flawed a bit and cannot grow, I
mean really grow and needs a rethink so it has some new blood.
Nothing wrong in the current membership or the level of support but
you have the best VO ever without a doubt and the numbers using it is
too restricted.

I would like to see a $300 US upgrade now so we are all on the same
version and you have a path and choice to VULCAN. You can push .NET
all you like but the vast majority are still using the Win32api
systems and they will be there for next 10 years.

My two cents worth.

I wish Don the best in the future and thanks for all you have done and
contributed for a product that was almost near death.

Phil McGuinness
-----
Ginny Caughey
2009-04-23 13:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Phil,

I'm not sure what Vista or Windows 7 uptake has to do with .NET. Or did I
misunderstand you? Most of my customers are still on Xp too, and they don't
know how much code they're running is .NET and don't care. I care because
.NET makes life easier for me and allows me more flexibility for
interoperability with other software.

I agree that VO 2.8 is very usable now and especially since you can also use
it to call into DLLs written in .NET. I really don't see the need to convert
working VO code to .NET, but that doesn't mean there's no advantage to using
.NET for new code.
--
Ginny Caughey
www.wasteworks.com
Post by Sherlock
Don, All
I use Vo2.8 VOPS latest build everyday for all my applicaiotn and for
a long time stuck with one major app using Vo2.5b3. I can tell you
VO2.8 is really good, especially the editot and I only last week found
the real issue with the old app. It ended up being 3 lines of old VO
code, buried in a libary that needed to be removed and replace with
another line that fixed a control/window resizing issue... outside of
that a few hours and it was all working.
The latest VO2.8 is well documented, well supported, new builds and
regular fixes and Rober tis right on the ball.
Have not jumped to DOTNET and the one developer who did has gone back
to Win32API programming. There are no plans for DOTNET at this time..
but in time might give it a shot.
A lot depends on Windows 7 revitilising the market as the web
application continue to grow in the office/corporate space. Vista just
did not inspire anybody and I thinks Windows 7 will have a good
impact.
In regards to DON wow he was there for it all and what a journey.
Creating something from nothing and working hand in hand with Robert/
Paul/Chris in taking an old VO2.5 with a zillion compile time errors
and tightening it up and getting it to export to .NET as Vulcan.
Imagine some of the decisions that were made and the contribution by
all.
Personally I think the VOPS model is flawed a bit and cannot grow, I
mean really grow and needs a rethink so it has some new blood.
Nothing wrong in the current membership or the level of support but
you have the best VO ever without a doubt and the numbers using it is
too restricted.
I would like to see a $300 US upgrade now so we are all on the same
version and you have a path and choice to VULCAN. You can push .NET
all you like but the vast majority are still using the Win32api
systems and they will be there for next 10 years.
My two cents worth.
I wish Don the best in the future and thanks for all you have done and
contributed for a product that was almost near death.
Phil McGuinness
-----
richard.townsendrose
2009-04-27 15:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi all

so todays news is that ms revenue has plummetted ... first time ever.

they are just like british telecom. the offer is impossible to
understand . nothing is simple and definable in a few lines.

and am i glad that someone shares my opinion that windows has done a
"clipper5" - got to the point where its nearly 100% usable but does
NOT need ever to be changed again. [well apart from the crappy browser
and office suite {if you can call a disparate set of purchases that}
that ships with it]

richard
Pilks
2009-04-28 05:44:26 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 27, 5:35 pm, "richard.townsendrose"
Post by richard.townsendrose
Hi all
so todays news is that ms revenue has plummetted ... first time ever.
they are just like british telecom. the offer is impossible to
understand . nothing is simple and definable in a few lines.
and am i glad that someone shares my opinion that windows has done a
"clipper5" - got to the point where its nearly 100% usable but does
NOT need ever to be changed again. [well apart from the crappy browser
and office suite {if you can call a disparate set of purchases that}
that ships with it]
richard
"The day that Microsoft starts producing a product that does not suck
is the day they start making vacuum cleaners"

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